Question REW setup problem. Java or Asio?

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by WozzaB, Jun 18, 2019.

  1. WozzaB

    WozzaB
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    Hi guys,

    UMIK-1 arrived today, fired up REW using Windows 10 and followed the setup procedure I found that asks you to use Asio instead of Java, I can't get the UMIK-1 to show as active in the Asio panel, then the inputs disappeared from what I had set, now showing "Not connected"
    I've spent about 4 hours trying the get it to work as per the detailed info I found, sometimes it recognises the mic and then it loses it again, very frustrating!

    It seems to be a common issue with Asio playing games!

    I got to run a few measurements running it in Java, pretty sure I had something set wrong as it said my dual XXLS400's were hitting 106db at 6hz:rotfl:

    Do you guys run Java or Asio?

    Any advice appreciated:thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  2. Conrad.

    Conrad.
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    Java only runs L, R, or L+R for me. So if that's all I want to measure then I use Java as it's much more stable.

    For multichannel I use Asio. Try opening the control panel and making sure only your HDMI and umik are turned on (play icon, from memory). Disable all others.

    I also find clicking reload a bunch of times helps, until I get a message that it's assuming that "unidentified input" it's an Umik 1

    I'm not sure that helps but I feel your pain.
     
  3. Conrad.

    Conrad.
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    Double post
     
  4. WozzaB

    WozzaB
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    Thanks for the reply.
    I'll stick to Java I think! I am only checking dual subs currently and it seemed to do a few measurements no problem earlier using Java, albeit way off for some reason, no way my subs are hitting over 100db at 5hz!! I'll recheck everything, mic setup etc.

    Do you use smoothing on the graph? This is all new and I think I tried to go too deep into it initially:confused:
     
  5. Conrad.

    Conrad.
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    For subs (or for up to 300-500Hz) no, no smoothing. For full range I think 1/6 is recommended. Personally I look at psychoacoustic as well.

    Post your graphs and MDAT file if you're after feedback. If you're using an umik, make sure you've downloaded and are using the appropriate calibration file for your mic.
     
  6. WozzaB

    WozzaB
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    First attempted graph!

    rew5.jpg

    There must be something wrong with the way I've set it up?
     
  7. WozzaB

    WozzaB
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    I did upload the mic serial number to get the calibration file, I'll double check all that again.
     
  8. Conrad.

    Conrad.
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    Standard scaling is 45 - 105 on the vertical axis, but even that doesn't explain the high SPL at such low frequencies. You're definitely selecting the Umik as the input and not using a built in mic of a laptop or anything? Can you screenshot the preferences pane and the measure panes of REW?

    Which version of REW are you using? Try running the SPL meter or the RTA and speak into the mic to confirm that you're getting the input correct. You can also use the RTA (in REW) and the generator to generate test tones and confirm that the RTA shows activity at the same frequency.

    Your mic isn't next to a fan or anything, is it?

    How large is the room?
    Are these nearfield, or from the main listening position?
    And are they just subs, or subs and mains? if both, what are your mains and where are the crossovers set?
    Can you sweep just the mains?
     
  9. MikeHoy

    MikeHoy
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  10. WozzaB

    WozzaB
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    I'll double all the stuff tomorrow and report back, run out of time tonight!

    Thaks
    I'll double all the stuff tomorrow and report back, run out of time tonight!

    Thanks for the help:smashin:
     
  11. WozzaB

    WozzaB
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    I've downloaded Asio4all, the issues crop up trying to use Asio4all, the mic doesn't show up or when it does it's "idle" with red X, issues with output selection as well, I followed 2 sets of instructions and hit a wall every time!

    I'll try again tomorrow maybe, cheers!
     
  12. MikeHoy

    MikeHoy
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    Did you download both cals, you need the 90 degree one.
     
  13. WozzaB

    WozzaB
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    I downloaded 2, the 90 deg one was recommended, I'll check the whole setup again tomorrow and report back, cheers!
     
  14. Conrad.

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    You only need the 90 degree cal file if you're pointing the mic at the ceiling (so at 90 degrees to the speaker). The regular cal works if you point the mic towards the source.
     
  15. WozzaB

    WozzaB
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    Well I got that in a muddle then!
    I am trying to do this with 4 week old twins in the house, so not concentrating properly:rotfl:
    So for dual subs placed front and rear, where do I point the mic? just upwards or the direction I face etc?
     
  16. Conrad.

    Conrad.
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    Horizontal facing towards the front soundstage is fine. If you're sweeping full range with the left, point it towards the left speaker. I'm pretty confident that the issue you're facing isn't an orientation one.
     
  17. DodgeTheViper

    DodgeTheViper
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    How are you connecting to the Receiver ?
     
  18. WozzaB

    WozzaB
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    I'll give it a try tomorrow.
    Via HDMI, it works ok it seems using Java, maybe needs the settings tweaking. Just can't get it to work using Asio4all!
     
  19. DodgeTheViper

    DodgeTheViper
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    Yeah, it’s most likely a clash there somewhere and just needs setting.

    Get some rest from those little ones if you can, and try again tomorrow ;)
     
  20. WozzaB

    WozzaB
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    That's the plan! The mrs is on the late shift and I'll take over about 4-5am:zonked:
    Cheers:smashin:
     
  21. richardsim7

    richardsim7
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  22. WozzaB

    WozzaB
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    I did see that mentioned when I was trying to find a fix for the issues, I might try it later if I get the chance.
    Cheers.
     
  23. WozzaB

    WozzaB
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    It looks like the Umik was out of whack, one of the twins was noisily leaving me a little present in his nappy this morning while I had the REW spl meter running, 97db, ummm no!!o_O

    I have reloaded the calibration file, reconnected the mic, opened REW again and it seems to be bevahing, around 60db when I'm talking in the room, the only spl meter I have to double check is on my phone and I didn't think a proper meter would be needed with a mic with a calibration file!

    I'll run some sweeps when the rugrats have a nap with mum in another room later.
     
  24. WozzaB

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    I've also just remembered I haven't run Audyssey on the dual subs yet!

    I was loathe to do so as when I got my XLS200 I just hooked up and used it with the Audyssey settings from the previous Q sub as I forgot all about running it, and it sounded great, but then I ran Audyssey and it sucked the low end out of the XLS200!

    I guess I should run it with dual subs and see what happens, just a little wary after last time!
     
  25. Conrad.

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    I'd measure without Audyssey first.
    The steps I'd follow are:

    - measure each sub, see what the response looks like. Play with placement options (if possible) individually to get as smooth a response for each sub as possible. You might not have any options.
    - level match
    - measure together to get a combined response. Play with the distances in the AVR to see what distance combination gives you the smoothest response. You're looking to avoid the combined line dipping below either individual sub output *
    - once you have the distance difference set, measure both subs with the left, then with the right and see what the integration looks like. Focus on the crossover area.
    - Adjust the distance of the subs as a pair (it might be easier to move the left/right channel rather than both subs) to get the best integration.

    Now you should be armed with four distance differences:
    sub 1 to sub 2 optimal,
    sub 1 to L optimal,
    sub 1 to R optimal,
    L to R (based on the difference between sub 1 and L and sub 1 and R).

    Then run Audyssey. After that it's a bit trial and error. If it sounds rubbish, try moving the distances using the differences you've established and see if things improve. Compare them to the distances that Audyssey set and see what's changed. The differences between speakers are what's important.

    It reads as really complex, it's not as hard as it looks, and you don't have to do it all. You could just level match the subs and then run Audyssey.

    If you have questions I'm happy to help here, or message me.

    * let's say you have a flat response from 60 - 70 Hz at 85 dB for both subs. When run as a pair the combined output could be lower than 85 dB in the same range. This is caused by a cancellation where the two sub's responses cancel out at the listening position at that frequency. This can often be fixed by changing the delay (distance) but it might well cause a different issue somewhere else. Choose the least worse combination. Timing coherence of subs with mains is less important than, for example, mains and center, or mains with each other.
     
  26. WozzaB

    WozzaB
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    Great info, thanks!

    I did level match them before and used the distance calculation that I found that uses the distance of both combined to the MLP then divided by 2.

    Noob question again, but when you say Sub 1 to L and R, is that in REW?

    I think I've jumped in the deep end a bit since I picked up the dual subs on here, only intended to buy one but the deal was too good to pass up!
     
  27. Conrad.

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    Ah, ok. If you're working with a single sub output on the AVR then I guess you don't have many options about distance. Is there a delay control on the sub itself?

    Nope, the difference in distance between the sub(s) and the left speaker as set in the AVR.

    Let's say you have one sub and complete control over placement, you place it where you get the best response and you set the two distances in the AVR: from the sub to the MLP, and the left speaker to the MLP

    Measure the left channel as well, so that know what the response for that channel looks like alone.

    Then you measure the pair (L and sub) and compare the three measurements (sub, L, both).

    You might end up with cancellations at or near the crossover point. This will manifest as dips in the combined response where you didn't have a dip in either the sub, or the left channel independently. Where the responses combine you'll get peaks, it's the same principle.

    If the dip is present in a single channel then it's caused by an interaction between the room and the channel. If it's in the combined response but not in the individual responses then it's an interaction between the two channels. Interactions between the room and the channel are altered with placement or room treatments. Interactions between channels can be resolved by changing the relative distances between the left and the sub.

    So adjust the distance of the sub and see how it changes the combined response as the delay is added/removed to that channel only. Move the sub two feet in the AVR, measure, move it another two feet, measure, and so on, until you find the smoothest crossover response.

    Once you know where that is you can compare the distance between sub and left in the AVR to know that, for example, a -4ft distance in the sub channel is smoothest. So Left is at 10ft and sub is at 6ft. Whatever Audyssey does you can then compare where it sets the sub relative to the left channel vs making the sub 4ft away.

    Dual subs should give you a much better result overall.
     
  28. WozzaB

    WozzaB
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    Probably best that I go back to the beginning and start afresh, when I can make the some noise that is!
    I'll report back, cheers.
     
  29. Conrad.

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    Apologies if I jumped in too far, too soon. I've been living dual sub EQ for the past few weeks trying to get mine integrated.

    How about starting smaller. Try measuring: each sub alone, both subs together, left alone, right alone, both subs and left, both subs and right. Share your graphs :)
     
  30. WozzaB

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    No apology needed! I have jumped straight into dual subs without really knowing how to properly set up a single one, but I want to do it properly so your info is very useful:smashin:

    I'll run some tests when I can and post some graphs.

    Cheers!
     

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