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Returing Samsung DLP

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by Jordans Norks, Jul 7, 2005.

  1. Jordans Norks

    Jordans Norks
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    Guys and Gals,

    If anyone here has returned a Samsung SP50 (or other DLP) due to rainbows could you please kindly post here and let me know...I am trying to return a set under the Sales of Goods Act (goods must be fit for purpose) and have been advised by the reseller to speak to Samsung and that I can return the set if I pay for delievery / collection and a £200 restocking fee. :mad:

    Since this issue is not resolved I won't post the company name, just to give them a chance, however to say I'm disappointed is an understatement. :thumbsdow

    Thanks

    Norks
     
  2. J80FAB

    J80FAB
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    Please do give the company name :D

    This is the problem with buying from some companies & therefore it's a good idea to always read the 'terms & conditions' :smashin:

    Or even if you're prepared to pay that little extra then buy from a 'reputable' retailer who you know you will not have horrendous problems with if you are not satisfied.

    Having to pay for collection & a restocking fee of £200 is bang out of order in my opinion :thumbsdow

    If you feel that there is a problem with the set in that you are getting rainbow effects, etc. the company should take it back & return it to the manufacturer as it is under warranty.

    I would be cautious as the company may return the set to the manufacturer in any case & try and pull a 'fast one' in the process by charging you all sorts of 'unecessary' costs :eek:
     
  3. LV426

    LV426
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    Tricky one, this. If the "only" thing that's wrong with it, is Rainbows, then (not wanting to seem unsympathetic) you have little or no legal recourse:

    1: There's nothing actually wrong with the TV within the limitations of what it is
    2: You made a choice which, with hindsight, wasnt right for you.

    In such circumstances, beyond the Distance Selling Regulations (if they apply here) there's no legal right you have to demand a return/replacement/refund etc.

    That's not to say that a half-decent supplier wouldn't co-operate; many would. But they aren't bound to, in such a case.
     
  4. J80FAB

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    Rainbow effects as it stands seem to a certain extent to be part & parcel of DLP technology, therefore LV426 is quite right in what he says. Though it could be that your set may have a problem in any case if this 'rainbowing' is extreme & persistant.

    Some companies such as JL from what I understand let you return the set within 28 days if you are not satisfied & apparently there are no additional costs involved so long as the item is returned in the state in which it was delivered, ie. new & boxed. So if you do take something out of its box don't throw it away & pay attention to how it has been packed so that it can be re-packed correctly.

    Also even after this period if you complain of a fault & that you are dissatisfied because in effect it is a brand new tv, in most instances they will replace the whole set & you should push for this option rather than a repair.

    As mentioned already it really is a good idea to check-out a company's 'terms & conditions' & 'returns' policy before making a purchase from them.
     
  5. Jordans Norks

    Jordans Norks
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    Interersting...fot infor I have copied the law I refer too:-

    'Fit for purpose' covers not only the obvious purpose of an item but any purpose you queried and were given assurances about by the trader.

    If something you buy from a trader does not meet these conditions, you are entitled to a full refund if you return the goods soon after purchase. Otherwise you are first and foremost entitled to have the goods repaired or replaced.

    Since I can myself, my partner and everyone else who has seen the TV during dark seens has felt ill I can not see how the fact "it's part of DLP" can be an excuse from the supplier.
     
  6. Jordans Norks

    Jordans Norks
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    The company is PRC Direct in the UK - below is the current email thread so you can draw your own conclusions (as my lawyer wife has happily stated as long as I don't libel and state fact I can't be sued, even if the issue is in dispute):-

    Best you start at the bottom for the full effect!

    Start of thread:-

    PRC Service,

    Firstly my contract is with yourselves not Samsung and as the seller
    YOU are liable for any faults, defects or not "Fit for purpose" etc
    under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as ammeded) for any goods you sell.

    Furthermore since I have reported this issue within 28 days I am
    legally entitled under this act to receive full refund with costs to
    myself - your "offer" of £200 restocking fee is quite shocking and
    probably illegal.

    Now I would have to prove in any legal matter that the set is indeed
    not "Fit for puropse" however I do not beleive this would be an issue
    as precendence for returing this item has been set by a great deal of
    your competiors (as can be seen on various online AV forums where alot
    of your trade comes from) - I can also show DVD's etc where the effect
    I have described is visible to all - whilst I hope this can be
    resolved amicablly I am more than prepared to take this further, if
    required.

    I am not an unreasonable person so I am more than happy (although not
    required) to pay for collection as I understand your cheap prices
    come from low profit margins - and I'm still more than happy to use
    your company for the purchase discussed lower down in this email
    (mainly as I found "XXX" your service desk guy extremely helpful),
    but I will not pay a restocking fee - I'm not just returning this TV
    because I don't like the colour / size /smell, it has a genuine
    problem displaying pictures that I and my partner can watch and is
    such not fit for it's purpose.

    I shall contact you tomorrow on the number you have kindly supplied
    once you have digested my email.

    Have a safe journey home.

    Thanks

    XXX

    - Hide quoted text -

    On 7/7/05, XXX
    >
    > Dear Sir,
    > Many thanks for your email. We are sorry to hear of the circumstances that
    > caused you to write to us. We feel that you might have discussed this issue
    > with Samsung directly. As advised by Samsung the TV is with in the
    > specifications given by them. However you can return the television with 10%
    > restocking fee. Please note that the restocking fee is subjected to the
    > inspection of the goods. Please email us confirming the acceptance of the
    > charges and make arrangements for the return of the TV. We can arrange for
    > collection of the TV at additional cost. If you needed further information
    > so as how to return the TV, Please email us or contact us on xxx
    >
    > Thank you
    >
    > Kind regards
    >
    >
    > PRC Service
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: XXX
    >
    > Service,
    >
    > Firstly I hope you are not based in London and you're safe and if you
    > are my thoughts are with you but please may I have a response on this.
    >
    > Thanks
    >
    > xxx
    >
    >
    >
    > Dear Service team,
    >
    > The Bad News
    > I recently purchased a Samsung SP507LHX DLP television from you and
    > I'm afraid I wish to return this item since they do not compliy to
    > "GOODS MUST BE FIT FOR THEIR PURPOSE" of the sale of goods act (as
    > amended) - (sorry for shouting I copied that from a website). I shall
    > elaborate...basically the TV set causes myself and my wife to feel
    > sick and get headaches as we see what is called the "rainbow effect"
    > where bright objects on dark backgrounds display a DLP effect called
    > "rainbows" where distinct green, blue and red lines are displayed -
    > this is seriously ruining our viewing pleasure and making us ill. I
    > totally understand that this strictly isn't your fault as it's an
    > inbuilt fault (or artifact as it's called) with DLP technology (hence
    > the statement "GOODS MUST BE FIT FOR THEIR PURPOSE"), but
    > unfortunately my contract is with you and not the manufacturer (who
    > quite frankly should warn potential buyers of this).
    >
    > I also understand that the "artifact" myself and my partner is seeing
    > is not seen by everyone all the time and isn't a "real" fault with the
    > TV, but I can guarantee that I can put on certain programmes / DVD's
    > so this effect is seen by everyone. Please also note that after
    > investigation this "artifact" is well documented and other end users
    > such as myself have returned items to various companies such as
    > yourself for the same reason.
    >
    > The Good News
    > I have been so impressed with the service, support, price and speedy
    > delivery of your company I wish to purchase from you a Panasonic
    > TH42PV500CAB from you (even though it's not the cheapest I can find),
    > which is actually considerably more than the Samsung (but please do
    > not tell my wife) along with 3 year extended warranty.
    >
    > In Summary
    > I would really appreciate that you could either respond via email or
    > by calling me on xxxx to discuss this as it is causing serious
    > distress to me and my partner.
    >
    > Thanks for your time
    >
    > XXX
    >
    > PS:- The Samsung TV is in excellent (as new condition) and I have kept
    > all packaging and can be resold as new

    xx end of thread xx

    DRAW YOUR OWN CONCULSIONS WHERE TO SPEND YOUR MONEY
     
  7. Jordans Norks

    Jordans Norks
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    LV,

    Understand where your coming from but it's important to note that me and the misses feel sick watching the TV...that can't be right?

    I'm not asking the Earth and feel as I have been reasonable with my request (prepared to pay for the return so companies like this can continue with their tiny profit margins).....we shall see! ;)
     
  8. neilmcl

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    Unless the TV is in some way faulty which will have to proven just because it doesn't meet up with your expectations doesn't mean that it's not "fit for purpose". Rainbows are a characteristic of DLP TVs that may effect some people more than others. As you have eluded to the fact that you've read the various AV forums you will already be aware of this and therefore couldn't plead ignorance and or feel that PRC have misled you in some way. CAveat Emptor I'm afraid.
     
  9. Mark_a

    Mark_a
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    Just recently had the same thing with RGBDirect and a Toshiba 52". Wasn't rainbows but the dreaded 'motion blur' problem that DLP Toshes appear to suffer from. Less than three weeks old and it was distracting me something rotten (only on low-bit-rate Sky channels). RGBDirect wanted £200 to cover cost of recovery and £80 administration. I thought about it and then decided I'd rather take a flyer on a Lumagen to see if it would cure it. Only got it this afternoon and am now away for the weekend, but it looks like it's cured it, so it looks like I'll keep the Tosh and RGB can go take a running jump.

    Mind you, having to spend another £800 to 'fix' a £2000 TV is not what I really wanted. I could've bought a Sagem 56" for the money, but what the hey. Into every life a little rain must fall.

    Regards

    Mark
     
  10. Jordans Norks

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    Buyer beware, well done - made my misses laugh alot that one.

    By the way I started posting / reading the DLP forums (and the reviews in various mags before) after purchase and I don't see what I read / post / digest or ignore affects my staturatory rights since for me there is an issue!

    PRC haven't mislead me at all, Samsung have (if anyone), I've posted for advice I can work on (such as LV's) not googled comments that don't apply
     
  11. J80FAB

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    Yes, there has been quite a lot said about 'rainbows' in various threads & I even recall Razor having posted a reply to a thread which distinctly showed the appearance of the character Bungle from the children's programme 'Rainbow' - now that is serious ! :D

    If PRC refuse to remove the £200 restocking fee then contact Samsung & request them to send an engineer to come and inspect the set or ask for a replacement set directly from them. If the rainbow effect in your opinion is very serious, ie. happening very frequently then you have to make this clear to them & say that you have not seen it happening on another set for example, eg. demo in your local electrical store.

    If you have been looking at some of the discussions regarding the Sagem HD-D45 then you will know that in the majority of cases Sagem is more than willing to be helpful to resolve customer dissatisfaction - they send out their own engineers, send replacement sets directly from their UK-based factory/warehouse. Surely for such an expensive piece of equipment Samsung should have something similar up their sleeves ??? And if you do contact Samsung you should point this out.

    If you want to try & resolve this matter to your satisfaction you have to be firm & avoid any frivolity as no one will take your complaint seriously :D
     
  12. Jordans Norks

    Jordans Norks
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    J80FAB,

    Thanks for your comments, really apreciated :thumbsup:

    I understand that some (if not all) people in a DLP forum will defend their purchase (I myself remember fighting a spectrum owner, 'cos I had a C64 at school due to my vested interest)...

    ...I'm not trying to "diss" DLP (Nephew taught me that one :) but I can not watch my purchase without feeling ill - I'm not expecting my TV to make the tea / be covered in diamonds / turn into "the fit one from from charmed" but I do expect to be able to sit in my livinig room and watch my TV without feeling ill / get headaches etc.

    I'd like to round off and state I believe DLP TV is the way forward and I shall return when three chip devices are there, but at the moment I can not watch a single chip / colour wheel device even though the picture (when I'm not feeling like poo and seeing rainbows is jaw dropping)!

    Please, please, please can I reiterate I need help and advice (whether good or bad) from people such as yourselves for what I do next / how I procede, I'm not knocking anyones purchase who's happy with it (you lucky buggers) :thumbsup:
     
  13. neilmcl

    neilmcl
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    JN, I wasn't trying to cause offence all I'm saying is that the rainbow effect is inherent to DLP technology that may or may not be a problem for some people and as such wouldn't necessarily be termed as a fault as such and therefore wouldn't really be covered by the Sales of Goods Act in the way you want. It's like trying to return an LCD that suffers from motion blur. All you can really do is appeal to PRCs better nature or as J80FAB suggested contact Samsung directly to see if there is a problem with your TV. The chances are the fact you're prepared to kick up a fuss, and why not, may mean PRC will relent in the end.
     
  14. Tarbat

    Tarbat
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    If you're confident of your case, you could take your case to the small claims court. I did exactly this when Techtronics insisted on charging me a re-stocking fee on a DVD player that I felt was faulty. It took a few months, but I came out of it with a full refund plus costs.

    You can do a small claim online at Money Claim Online - https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp

    Also remember that under recent consumer law changes, within the first 6 months of purchase the onus is on the retailer to establish that the goods are NOT faulty, you don't have to prove they're faulty. To quote:
    ".... when a consumer returns goods in the first six months from the date of the sale, and requests a repair or replacement or, thereafter, a partial or full refund. In that case, the consumer does not have to prove the goods were faulty at the time of the sale. It is assumed that they were. If the retailer does not agree, it is for him to prove that the goods were satisfactory at the time of sale."

    See http://www.dti.gov.uk/ccp/topics1/guide/sogconsumerguide.pdf
     
  15. Jordans Norks

    Jordans Norks
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    No probs mate and apologies if I was a bit short....been a bit emotional today (I'm a Londoner, but thankfully all my loved ones are OK)!
     
  16. J80FAB

    J80FAB
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    It's a good thing that cjgpers stopped by & left us some very handy information :smashin:

    Of course the consumer is protected when making a purchase, but in most cases people do not know their rights & if something breaks down after say 2 months they immediately assume that it can only be repaired rather than requesting a replacement or a full refund.

    During my visit yesterday to Empire Electrical which runs the on-line EmpireDirect, I asked one of the sales assistants who has been there for ages about what they would do if there was a problem with my purchase intially & then a little later. He just said that during the 1st month they would consider replacing & after that, ie. 2nd, 3rd month for example it would be a repair..... I don't think so :nono:

    Obviously they probably know that most people have no clue about the 'sales of goods legislation' & therefore can fob them off with a repair because this probably means less hassle for them having to return the item to the manufacturer, that's if they actually do this. And if they do a repair under warranty then I guess it's another little money earner for them because they can claim the expenses for the repair from whoever underwrites the warranty.

    About 3 years ago I bought a digital terrestrial decoder at Empire Electrical after having read reviews about it which claimed that it had a slot for a viewing card for pay-per-view channels & a slot for a conditional access module (CAM) (the thing which you have to put your viewing card into if the method of encryption is not supported by the standard slot). Anyway I got it home only to discover that the slot was blocked which meant that if any pay-per-view channels became available (eg. Top Up TV) you would have to buy a separate CAM for the viewing card !!! I took it back for a refund & explained only to get a mouthful from one sales assistant who said that next time if I plan to buy something I shouldn't believe everything they write in reviews, or something like that. :eek: There was also a VCR related experience I had with them which I've waffled about in another thread.

    It's stuff like the above mentioned which has put me off buying anything really expensive from there or anyone with a similar attitude.

    On the other hand I had 3 VCRs in a row from Dixons & all 3 of them had the same problem - they did not want to load some tapes properly & spat them out :rolleyes: why is it always me ! :rolleyes: The store manager was very accommodating, told me not to worry, didn't even check the VCRs out for himself & said that if there was a problem then they would simply be sent back to the manufacturer. The problem was still present with the 3rd one which I returned & was given a full refund.

    I think we all need to have a good read of the sales of goods act as well as a retailers 'terms & conditions' :boring: to avoid any unpleasantness, heartache & so that a case can be argued on the grounds of the sales of goods act :D ..... sometimes easily said than done !!!
     
  17. Jordans Norks

    Jordans Norks
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    Since I'm not able to slander / libel I would just say:

    "In my own personal opinion I would not use PRC Direct (UK) for any purchase what's so ever"

    In case your watching PRC this is an objective comment...(bit like my complaint against you), sue me if you like! :)
     
  18. Steve.J.Davies

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    Err, not trying to throw a spanner here but AFAIK its not sets that suffer from 'the rainbow effect'. Its people that do.
    How this fits in to 'fit for purpose' is beyond me as the retailer could line up a whole bunch of people who don't see rainbows.
    You may be taling less risk buy selling it on, but if you don't mind the risk of losing...
     
  19. Jordans Norks

    Jordans Norks
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    Again fit for purpose mate...the contract is between ME amd the seller, not with anyone else, As stated I'm quite prepared to go to court on this and the THX test with the circle is a doozy for EVERYONE for rainbows.

    I'm not asking for world peace here!
     
  20. Jordans Norks

    Jordans Norks
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    Steve,

    What...my eyes cause the "problem" of seeing stuff, of course they do...but when I see colour in 12 angry men that's got to be wrong!

    Feel passion for DLP may be taking over.......
     
  21. Mark_a

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    I've come to the conclusion that rainbow effects (and even Toshiba's motion blurring) are related to individual's physical eye make up. I base this on the fact that, bizarrely, both effects get much worse if you eat a crunchy apple while watching the set (or any other crunchy food). I believe what's happening is the vibration of the eating is literarily shaking the fluid in the eye. This distorts whatever it is you're looking at in a minute way, but focusing on a TV with a DLP system somehow amplifies the distortion.

    I know it all sounds like cobblers, but give it a try. Another way is to blow raspberries or clean your teeth with an electric toothbrush. All of them immediately cause the rainbow effect. And I guess with some folks they must have such sensitive eye fluid that even the simple act of breathing or talking will generate the effect. So they never will get on with a DLP display.

    Regards

    Mark
     
  22. Hartigan

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    Hey mate, I feel for you - I really do. But what many others are saying on this Forum (particularly Mark A) is correct. It really is an incompatibility between the way DLP produces it's picture and the way our eyes work. Even on 'Twelve Angry Men' - cos all colours make up white, you'll still get 'rainbowing' on a B+W film if you look at it wrong. By wrong, I'm meaning out of the corners of your eye, or panning your eyes across, as Mark A has explained.

    As an ex-Deputy Manager of a leading electrical store I can tell you that, without an engineers report to the contrary, I would have refused your refund too - on the grounds that the screen was working within specifications. However, if you'd have packaged the whole thing up and dumped it back on my doorstep formally rejecting the product, nice and calmly without a fuss I would have probably let you swap it for something else. Not sure you could do that with the place you bought it...

    Just a lesson to check out the returns policy of anywhere you purchase from. Especially if you're not 100% certain the purchase will be the right one.
     
  23. Steve.J.Davies

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    My point here is that if rainbows are introduced by the humanware then the logical outcomes of your case are only two.
    1) You lose because the set is fit for purpose, its your eyes that have the problem not the set. Tvs do not come with free eye tests nor should they be expected to.
    2) You win on the basis that DLP sets will cause this effect in a proportion of the population.
    I can't see 2) happening. a proportion of the population can't drive (I don't mean haven't learnt, i mean can't and never will be able to drive). Doesn't mean they can return the car they buy as unfit for purpose (or that cars will have arning stickers on them - 'don't not buy one these if you are one of those wil are congenitally unable to drive'.
    If you have viewed a DLP set in action before purchase then I can't see how you can win. If you have not and you just bought one on-spec with absolutley no knowledge ofthe possibility of the rainbow effect and even if they supplier didn't publish a warning about it I don't see how you can win a 'not fit for purpose' arguement. If you did view one in advance or had advance knowldge ofthe possibility of the rainbow effect then they win as you had your chance. Caveat Emptor.
    OTOH if you want to argue along the lines of 'I changed my mind' then you may get them to co-operate and do a swap/refund/credit note. I think its too late for that now as you have clearly started along another tack and your arguement with the supplier would lose all cedibility of you changes tack now.
    I still reckon you are best to sell it on fast to minimise losses.
     
  24. J80FAB

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    I've just been looking at PRC Direct's 'terms & conditions'.

    There is mention of returning goods, time scales given, authorisation for return & time scale within which the product has to be returned after 'authorisation', cost for collecting item (no mention of how much this may be), but no mention of any 'restocking fee' as such. :confused:

    They do mention that 'please note that orders that have already been processed will be subject to administration charge' but it isn't very clear as to what sort of admin charge this may be :thumbsdow There is also no indication of how much or what % this is going to be which is pretty poor to say the least :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow

    You can use this sort of stuff to argue the £200 re-stocking charge as there is definitely no clear indication of this in their 'terms & conditions'. You could therefore say that their T&Cs are unclear & therefore misleading.

    But please make sure you read them yourself as I may have missed something because it's late ! :D
     
  25. LV426

    LV426
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    Rainbows aren't exactly introduced by Humanware. They are actually there in the projected image - at least - the image is sequentially coloured. What differences in peoples' humanware does is introduce differences in the extent to which each of us is able to see the sequential colour; for many - not at all; for some - so badly as to induce nausea.

    However, I would liken the situation to this: Suppose you bought a bicycle, and then found that you are one of the (1?)% of people totally unable to balance on two wheels; it would be quite reasonable for the retailer to deduct a restocking charge, or, in fact, refuse to to so completely, if there is nothing wrong with the bike. Your "fault" for not finding out, first. Your "fault" for asking someone like me who says - yeah, riding a bike is easy.

    Again, as one who is very rainbow sensitive (and hence a total convert to LCD), I'm sorry to be unsympathetic, but it's my belief you have little grounds. I wish you success, and, indeed, would like to see your "test case" result in the abandonment of colour wheels in favour of true 3-chip constructs by the industry. Yet I fear that, since those of us so affected are in a minority, you will end up having to write this off to experience.
     
  26. encaser

    encaser
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    This rainbow effect sounds like a 'normal' operating level which outraged many earlier plasma buyers; who were led to believe that they ran silently without a high pitch type whine from the power supply unit. I bought a Panasonic and found the noise irritating and complained to both the retailer and Panasonic only to be told it's normal. The Panasonic site even used to state silent running as a pro, which later was removed from their site. Nice. Now many retailers state that they are not so; as so many people complained and wanted replacements/repair/refunds. One would imagine Samsung will take a similar stance with the tv being in line with standards.
    I could suggest you insist on either a callout for repair or replacement as you don't feel the set to be within standars, which surely PRC would then have to disprove. If they arrange replacement or repair you may be lucky enough to find the set is/was at fault all along. If not then I'm afraid you're back to square one.
    It may be worth contacting the Citizens' Advice Bureau and/or trading standards over the vaguery of PRCs T&Cs, as noted by J80FAB, who should have a better idea over whether you could take a stab at large returns/restocking/admin fees and/or if a court settlement should go in your favour as a last resort.
    Surely if a punter floats into a shop and looks at a set for a while and thinks it's great, only to later see images after hours of home viewing which cause ill effect you have a right to complain and seek refund - or store credit at worst? Is it a definite that those with aversions to the rainbow effect will see it every time, whatever and whenever they view the set to nausea levels? If not so, couldn't this be raised also along with peoples posts on forums to Trading Standards and/or Citizens Advice and later a court if needed. Plus shouldn't the sales staff be under some sort of obligation to clearly state that some people may suffer ill effect with the set analogous what has happened in the case of some plasmas 'whine'?
    I wouldn't buy something else from PRC, were I you, as a replacement if that something is more than you could get it elsewhere as that's pointless in the money saving camp. Going by what you've reported they will still hit you for the £200 plus collection whatever. So all you'll be doing is burying more cash into the PRC moneypit.
     

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