Replacement For Denon 2800 Mk 1

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by skimber, May 31, 2003.

  1. skimber

    skimber
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    What would anyone here recommend as the best sub-£500 (or much less if it's still an improvement) replacement for a first generation (Mark One) Denon DVD-2800?

    I'm connecting to a Panny AE100 (although hope to upgrade to the AE300 in the not too distant future) and I'm looking for the best NTSC and PAL progressive picture.

    Obviously I want a better picture than my current player, and the absence of the Pal progressive lip-sync problems, and other bugs the 2800's have become known for.

    Thanks in advance for any advice!!
     
  2. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    Try the Arcam DV88+
     
  3. skimber

    skimber
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    Um, thanks Dimmy, but that's double the budget I stated :(
     
  4. vonhosen

    vonhosen
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  5. skimber

    skimber
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    I'm looking for recommendations of specific models that can be bought NEW for less than £500 (street price, not RRP) and which would be a noticable improvement in quality over my 2800 mk1, so please post if you have experience with this player and have upgraded.

    Just telling me about a good player (or hi-jacking my thread with an advert for your for-sale thread ;)) doesn't tell me how that player would compare with what i've already got! :(

    For example, has anyone here gone from the 2800 to the Harmon Kardon DVD25?
     
  6. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    Oh sorry - didn't notice the "under £500" bit there - I'd had a few beers.

    I know this seems idiotically logical but I really would suggest the Denon DVD2800MKII.

    People have reported a few problems with this but if you buy it from a descent dealer (i'd strongly recommend http://www.sevenoakssoundandvision.co.uk - who're selling it for £419), you shouldn't have any problems with it.

    If you're really determined not to have any problems with PAL progressive firmware updates then buy the Philips DVD963SA, as it's modified for PAL progressive via a remote handset hack. But at the same time the Denon gives a better picture.

    I wouldn't recommend the HK DVD25, it's ugly and IMHO not really that good.
     
  7. MartinCo

    MartinCo
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    Dimmy, the 2800 mkII isn't any better than the mkI and similarly has serious problems. not to be recommended in any circumstances.

    both have serious mpeg decoding problems and longterm firmware problems never fixed (especially if you want to go the pal progressive route). after my experiences, I would never buy another Denon DVD player, just not worth the hassle. I'd still buy their amps and other kit.

    skimber, after various swapouts and loans moving from a 2800 to a mkII, I've now got a Philips 963. infinitely better and works perfectly (unlike the Denons). no messing around hacked firmware, the player does everything after a few remote codes.
    its also an SACD player as an added bonus.

    I dont agree with Dimmy's statement "at the same time the Denon gives a better picture" - the pictures are almost identical to be honest - both have quality DACs and de-interlacing chipsets (silicon image in the denon, sage/ faraoudja in the 963) so you would expect as much.

    the Philips had problems with quality control in early batches (nothing like Denon's mind you;)) and a few glitches but now seems to be fine. I've played a few R2 discs with no problems but some lipsync problems have been reported..

    the HK DVD 25 is actually a pretty good player.. the styling may not appeal but it gives a good progscan output. not to be sniffed at for £250.

    the Sony 930 is also imminent in the next 4-6 weeks but is likely to have the chroma bug.
     
  8. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    Well if you've had so many problems with you Denon DVD players MartinCo you're really in no position as to comment on its' comparability to your Philips 963 are you?

    I have to heisten this point (again). If you want a Denon DVD player that works, buy it from a reputable dealer - not the 'grey imports' sorts.
     
  9. skimber

    skimber
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    MartinCo: Thanks for the advice, I'll check out some reviews of the philips if i can. Decent R2 discs do seem generally ok on the 2800, FOTR Extended for example, but older disks cause constant lip-sync failure...

    2800 mk1 didn't have silicon image or sage/ faraoudja so was there a very noticable increase in performance from the mk1 to the mk2?

    Dimmy: Surely martinCo is in a perfect position to comment if he's had lots of problems... should people who have problems keel their mouths shut? :eek:
     
  10. MartinCo

    MartinCo
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    ? :confused:

    Dimmy since I've actually had a mkI and a mkII I think it gives me a very real "position" to be able comment on Denon players and their faults.

    also I buy all my kit from reputable dealers, no grey imports. not sure where you get that impression from? its irrelevant anyway.

    regardless of whether you get them from a reputable dealer or not, Denon DVD players do not work as specified, they know the players have various faults and will not fix them, installing the older pal progressive firmware just adds to the problem for support.

    you only have to look at the 3800 owner thread to see all is not well for them either... the player isn't even being sold anymore.

    [edit]
    :)thanks skimber, the 2800 had some bad lipsync discs due to the firmware and faults. at times it could give an excellent picture, just not very often;). FOTR 2 disc was actually one of my test discs with the mpeg problems so its ironic this is okay.

    the 2800 mkI did have a silicon image ps chipset, the mkII just has a slightly newer version. bar the noise shaped video, no real picture differences between the mkI & II so not really worth an upgrade to this.

    both have the chroma bug and no fix either.
     
  11. skimber

    skimber
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    And the philips is free of the chroma bug? (something i've heard mentioned plenty of times but never been quite sure how to identify!)
     
  12. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    the philips is free of pretty much all bugs - advantages of not having to fiddle with firmware.

    Martinco... What I meant is if you never got a denon 2800MKII working properly (and believe it or not - I have) you probably never saw its full potential.

    A working denon (as rare as it may seem) does outperform the Philips - which isn't open to debate.

    From what MartinCo's saying it seems obvious that a Denon DVD2800MKII is a bit of a gamble - and if it pays off you'll be more than happy with the machine.

    I'd call the Philips 963 the 'Safe But Successful' bet for you choice of DVD player.

    Still don't like the HK and prefer the Philips over it - infact I'd even prefer a Tosh 520E over it. Admittedly the HK had an excellent and realistic colour balance, but it didn't handle blacks very well and as a result - or incidentally - didn't have the best detail retrieval. At least IMHO.
     
  13. vonhosen

    vonhosen
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    I had a Philips 963SA & was not impressed at all. Audio drop outs, green bands etc. It was back with the retailer within the week.

    Also had a Denon (3800 though) & that gave me no problems what so ever. Late build model , multi region & PAL progressive output. Fast layer changes & great picture. You may still be able to get a late build one but it would probably be a little bit over the £500 budget.
     
  14. MartinCo

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    the green bands on component would be the early batch quality control I referred to a couple of posts up. Philips are aware of it and have fixed it in both in production and for existing users afaik.

    shame about the 3800 not being sold anymore.. when you have a good one, everything the 2800 should have been and more. it was my great hope at one time but scared off by all the faults here and avs.
    is there not now some parts availability issues also?
    agreed though, if you get a good one with all the fixes, its a great player, presumeably hard to get now though.

    hmmm... can you back that statement up with some imperical evidence Dimmy? you say it as if there is some certainty to this "debate". spill the beans - do tell.;)

    both have decent chassis and solid construction.

    both have 13 bit, 108mhz DACs for resolving extra detail, plus nsv or noise reduction techniques to get the best picture.

    both have excellent progressive scan chipset, sil & sage.. (the faroudja is argueably better).

    such a large difference there.:)

    just because something is more expensive, does not make it better.

    once any decent player properly calibrated (and not just these two) is running progressive scan in the correct pulldown mode, can you really see massive differences between them?

    I think not. minor differences, some detail resolving at best. you say this yourself with the Toshiba 520.

    the Philips is good now for £300. I still think the Denon is overpriced for what it is, even at its lower price. the original £600-£700 is a bit of joke now though.

    IMHO Denon better buck up their ideas and their prices down, Sony and Toshiba will be appearing on the horizon soon with cheap reliable pal progressive players.
     
  15. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    Agreed.

    I think when the next batch of Toshibas, Sony's & Philips DVD players come out (SD530 perhaps for example,?), there isn't going to be much of a place in the world for players like the Denon 2800.
     
  16. skimber

    skimber
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    ok, Martin, if you still had a 2800 now and were considering the philips, would you buy it again or would you wait for the players around the corner?
     
  17. Kirk

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    Hi Peeps,

    I am in a similar dilema to Skimber really, I am looking at upgrading my current DVD player (Limit 9900SE) to a more robust DVD Player.

    I have always liked the looks of the Denon's and would like to get one in order to match my Denon Amp (3802), however the problems reported here have put e off to some degree.

    It worries me that no magazine review i have ever seen or red faults the Denon's, yet in the real world a large number of people think they are seless....:confused:

    The Philips sounds okay, however it doesnt look the part to my eyes....would much rather have a Denon style.....shallow I know!

    Another consideration for me, I need my DVD player to be capable of doing PAL Prog Scan for the future, however, at this point, I want it also to be able to convert PAL into NTSC Prog Scan to work with my current LG Plasma. (This is what the Limit does for me)

    Hmmm looking for a decent DVD player is a nightmare.......
     
  18. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    The Philips is compatible with the PAL/NTSC progressive conversion you're reffering too, and is easily upgradable to PAL progressive.

    But again - it doesn't really look the part.

    Try Toshiba's SD900E which you can read a review of here:

    http://www.whatvideotv.com

    Big, Gold Chunky & gorgeous like the Denons aswell as having PAL/NTSC Pseudo PAL progressive.(although the tradeoff is - again - it doesn't support TRUE PAL progressive).

    You could always bite the bullet and buy a Denon DVD3800 (I believe there's one for sale in the classifieds for a reasonable price).

    You might want to wait for the new Denon DVD2900, or the 5900.
     
  19. MartinCo

    MartinCo
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    to be honest, the looks aren't important to me - something that works and has quality video is far higher up my list.
    also I'd rather have good reliable components on the inside with a reasonable case, than a smart looking case with really variable quality internals and buggy firmware... the Philips isn't perfect but its a lot closer than Denon in this respect.

    every recent Denon model seems to have very poor quality control ... 2800, mkII, 3800... even the new 2900 that Dimmy mentions already has huge problem threads on avs... and yet people still buy them!

    it looks like the 2900 is replacing the 2800mkII and the 3800 to an extent (universal dvd-a/ sacd player), so expect the price to be well above £500 also.

    the 5900 doesn't even really exist yet, only recently described and not even finalised. bound to be pricey also.. £800 upwards?

    Kirk, there have been bad reviews in the press about Denon players, or at least some mentions of problems... they've never slated one though so go figure... biting the hand that feeds obviously isn't a good thing.

    re:the Denon case ... yes it is nice but really just a generic one used on the 2800, mkII, 3800, A1 etc.. I guess Denon must've bought a job lot of the things. :)

    if you actually look at the insides of a 2800, its nearly empty... disc loader and a few circuit boards... so yes, big, chunky and gorgeous... but also what a waste of internal space. no real reason for this, they could easily have a rigid chassis at half the height. people obviously think they are getting more somehow. ;)

    agreed, the Philips isn't as weighty as a 2800 - about 4.5kg, against a 2800s 6.5kg.. that extra wasted space in the chassis probably accounts for a good deal of this.

    Steve and Kirk... as to what I would do - a tough call and one for you to make, not me.
    my change cost me nothing, essentially a swapout from 2800 orig, to a mkII, then onto a 963 + credit note for additional kit.

    of course, skimber with the 2800 if you have a 2 yr warranty with your dealer, you could always report specific problems and see if you can get a swapout for something else... not impossible if you report the right faults ;) . that way you can protect your "investment" perhaps?
     

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