BlueWizard
Distinguished Member
Let's go back to the beginning where the 'controversy' started. This is the question that was asked --
"So in a ideal world but only for performance sakes not aesthetically with a blank sheet what sort of speaker design would you have built money no object to cover the audio spectrum 20-20khz and why ie size drivers, number off ?"
Notice he says SPEAKER DESIGN, not music system. Though I didn't answer precisely in the context of his question of blank sheet implied unlimited funds. I still stand by my answer in the context of the broader discussion, and in the context of this specific question.
My response -
"20hz is something of a piped dream, as much as some people see it as a goal, it is not really necessary for music, and though nice for movies, equally not really necessary."
Now I have to admit that in the context of unlimited fund and unlimited technical expertise, I did not answer his question. But, there is virtually no one with unlimited funds and unlimited technical expertise. Even speaker manufacturers do not have unlimited resources.
However, there are speaker designs, not music systems, that can come close to the ideal, but it is going to be extremely difficult and extremely expensive to achieve.
If you really want full range in a speaker design, you need to take an approach similar to this -
Specification of F1.1A_HiVi,Inc.
But notice, that the specs on this design do not achieve the stated goal. I'm simply illustrating how massive you have to get to come close. Actually if we assume it is 35hz at -3db, then likely the -6db is going to be just sub-30hz.
Really, it can't be done without a Subwoofer in any practical sense. But if we include a subwoofer, we are not talking about a Speaker Design, we are talking about a complete and complex system.
As I said before, you will not get the seamless integration of Subwoofer without Electronic Bass Management for BOTH the Front and Sub. That can be done for Stereo, as I have already pointed out, and it can be done for home theater as virtually every AV Receiver from the cheapest to the most expensive has Electronic Bass Management.
But again, if we include the Sub, we are no longer talking about a Speaker Design, we are talking about System Design. In the context of the original question, there are few to none practical Speaker Designs that can meet the goal of 20hz on the low end. And, there is very little to no content down that low in music. Yes ...already acknowledge... that there is some music somewhere that has this deep content, but I would say a vast majority of people will never encounter it.
In a Speaker Design, which is the context of the original question, it is extremely difficult to go much below 30hz, and if you set sub-30hz as a goal, count on the price getting very very high.
The problem is, you simply ignored the context of the original question and of the original discussion, and went off on your own unrelated tangent.
I can see your point, but your point is outside the context of the discussion. You can't see my point because you seem to be refusing to see the context ... despite the fact that I have explained it several times.
The original question that started this side thread dealt with a SPEAKER, not a SYSTEM. That is the context in which I answered. Until you can see that context, there can be no productive discussion. In the context of a SYSTEM, I certainly do see your point, but the data I provided, and the question that was asked and answered in not in the context of a full system - stereo or surround sound.
There are circumstance where I would have a Subwoofer. But they are for an expensive Stereo system with bass management, or in an elaborate and expensive Home Theater system. Since I do not have the funds for either of those, I choose to concentrate my money where it will do the most good, and that is on a good pair of Stereo Floorstanding speakers. In that context, you will struggle to go Sub-30hz. Though my speakers are rated at 28hz at -6dB. To go much below that in this context, gets expensive and impractical.
Now I said earlier, that until you can see the context, there can be no productive discussion. That's not totally true; between us there can be no productive discussion. However, I think everything you said and everything that was discussed, was productive to the casual reader following this thread. In that sense it was generally productive, but it was unresponsive to the comments I made.
Context is everything.
Steve/bluewizard
"So in a ideal world but only for performance sakes not aesthetically with a blank sheet what sort of speaker design would you have built money no object to cover the audio spectrum 20-20khz and why ie size drivers, number off ?"
Notice he says SPEAKER DESIGN, not music system. Though I didn't answer precisely in the context of his question of blank sheet implied unlimited funds. I still stand by my answer in the context of the broader discussion, and in the context of this specific question.
My response -
"20hz is something of a piped dream, as much as some people see it as a goal, it is not really necessary for music, and though nice for movies, equally not really necessary."
Now I have to admit that in the context of unlimited fund and unlimited technical expertise, I did not answer his question. But, there is virtually no one with unlimited funds and unlimited technical expertise. Even speaker manufacturers do not have unlimited resources.
However, there are speaker designs, not music systems, that can come close to the ideal, but it is going to be extremely difficult and extremely expensive to achieve.
If you really want full range in a speaker design, you need to take an approach similar to this -
Specification of F1.1A_HiVi,Inc.
But notice, that the specs on this design do not achieve the stated goal. I'm simply illustrating how massive you have to get to come close. Actually if we assume it is 35hz at -3db, then likely the -6db is going to be just sub-30hz.
Really, it can't be done without a Subwoofer in any practical sense. But if we include a subwoofer, we are not talking about a Speaker Design, we are talking about a complete and complex system.
As I said before, you will not get the seamless integration of Subwoofer without Electronic Bass Management for BOTH the Front and Sub. That can be done for Stereo, as I have already pointed out, and it can be done for home theater as virtually every AV Receiver from the cheapest to the most expensive has Electronic Bass Management.
But again, if we include the Sub, we are no longer talking about a Speaker Design, we are talking about System Design. In the context of the original question, there are few to none practical Speaker Designs that can meet the goal of 20hz on the low end. And, there is very little to no content down that low in music. Yes ...already acknowledge... that there is some music somewhere that has this deep content, but I would say a vast majority of people will never encounter it.
In a Speaker Design, which is the context of the original question, it is extremely difficult to go much below 30hz, and if you set sub-30hz as a goal, count on the price getting very very high.
The problem is, you simply ignored the context of the original question and of the original discussion, and went off on your own unrelated tangent.
I can see your point, but your point is outside the context of the discussion. You can't see my point because you seem to be refusing to see the context ... despite the fact that I have explained it several times.
The original question that started this side thread dealt with a SPEAKER, not a SYSTEM. That is the context in which I answered. Until you can see that context, there can be no productive discussion. In the context of a SYSTEM, I certainly do see your point, but the data I provided, and the question that was asked and answered in not in the context of a full system - stereo or surround sound.
There are circumstance where I would have a Subwoofer. But they are for an expensive Stereo system with bass management, or in an elaborate and expensive Home Theater system. Since I do not have the funds for either of those, I choose to concentrate my money where it will do the most good, and that is on a good pair of Stereo Floorstanding speakers. In that context, you will struggle to go Sub-30hz. Though my speakers are rated at 28hz at -6dB. To go much below that in this context, gets expensive and impractical.
Now I said earlier, that until you can see the context, there can be no productive discussion. That's not totally true; between us there can be no productive discussion. However, I think everything you said and everything that was discussed, was productive to the casual reader following this thread. In that sense it was generally productive, but it was unresponsive to the comments I made.
Context is everything.
Steve/bluewizard
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