Relative Size of Drivers = how many of these to equal one of those?

BlueWizard

Distinguished Member
So in a ideal world but only for performance sakes not aesthetically with a blank sheet what sort of speaker design would you have built money no object to cover the audio spectum 20-20khz and why ie size drivers, number off ? When my cv s go pop I would like a project.

20hz is something of a piped dream, as much as some people see it as a goal, it is not really necessary for music, and though nice for movies, equally not really necessary.

I have an unusual system in that I have two amps and two pair of speakers. My old set of speakers, which I keep because having them and using them is worth more than the small amount of money I could get for them, have 12" bass drivers and horn Midrange and Tweeters. My main/new speakers have 2x8" bass drivers each. I would rate the 12" DIY speakers at best at 35hz, and at -6db, the 2x8" are rated at 28hz. During action movies, I've felt bass impact that cause the upholstery on my chair to flex under the impact. I've felt bass so intense the whole room shook. So, exactly what is it I'm missing again????

As to speaker designs, this is my latest -

traptwr2-jpg.476954


Three of the design goals were -

- Separate cabinets for the low bass
- Trapezoidal shape
- Deep bass impact, but not over bearing or droning bass. I want deep but tight.

In the modern world most people want very slender unobtrusive cabinets, so this would not work for them. However, being Old School, and not minding big monkey coffins, I'm OK with a 10" bass driver. Especially given that I have 12" bass drivers now.

In the drawing, the grid is 2.5" per square. So as drawn the cabinets are 37.5 inches high and about 15 inches wide at the bottom, though if I ever build them, those dimension would likely change out of necessity.

The design on the left is a 3.5-way. The 10" runs in parallel with the 8" at the lowest frequencies, probably below about 200hz. And NO, it is not a Subwoofer, just a straight up woofer.

The design on the right, is a 3-way, 10" bass, 2x4" midrange, and a tweeter.

Using the Relative Size information we have, we discover a 10" is relatively 11.65, and 2x8" is 13.52. We can divide this how we choose, but 11.65/13.52 = 0.862, meaning that a 10" bass driver is 86.1% the size of 2x8" bass drivers. While slightly smaller, a 10" bass driver will inherently go lower.

Given the large diameter bass driver and the large cabinet size, this would likely have loud and deep bass response. Given the speakers I was considering for this design, they have a Sensitivity of 87db, and a rated bass response of 27hz, though with room gain, likely a bit deeper. I think we could arrive at a design that was flat to 27hz, and given typical speakers, we could estimate a -6db response of 22hz. Whether that would prove out in the final design remains to be seen.

While the specs on the matching 8" driver are very close to the 10" bass driver, two 8" cost US$100 where as one 10" cost US$80. Given that you need double that amount for both speakers, I save $40.

Which is the best choice for any given person is up to that person. As it stands now, I'm going with 10" bass drivers, though a similar design could be accomplished with 2x8" bass drivers. If a narrow face to the room is important, then 2x8", if that is not such a great concern, then 1x10".

For what it is worth.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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KelvinS1965

Distinguished Member
20hz is something of a piped dream, as much as some people see it as a goal, it is not really necessary for music, and though nice for movies, equally not really necessary.

Just because your system can't produce 20Hz at the kind of levels some of us can achieve on here doesn't mean it's 'not really necessary'. There is another thread on here about being able to reproduce deep Organ notes which apparently have a fundamental at 16Hz, so there are musical requirements for such low bass too (not that Organ music is my 'bag').

Since building my 2 x 15" subs (flat down to 10Hz FWIW) I've become aware of various LFE effects on films I'd previously watched with my oldBK Monolith (itself not a poor performer in bass terms) that just weren't noticed on the oldset up. On horror films (and others) there is sometimes a very deep LFE that adds to the almost
subconscious effect of creating tension/fear. It's not so much that my sofa shakes (and it does) but that sometimes you feel like the room is going to collapse...big difference IMV.

Anyway, there is a huge thread somewhere on AVS which you might like to read where they discussed the
usefulness of below 20Hz content, I think it's within the subwoofer section. I doubt it'll change your mind, but it might at least show that plenty of people do find it is necessary as part of a decent home cinema system.
 
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Jameskatie

Distinguished Member
I think it would be funny to see the look on Steves face in my room or gecko if he thinks the room shaking from a pair of 8's or 12s was "enough" hehe
 

BlueWizard

Distinguished Member
Let's take the lowest note on a Bass Guitar; that is about 40hz, but how often to you hear the Bass player playing an open low "E" string. It happens but it is rare. Equally, there is some Pipe Organ somewhere that has a 16hz pipe, but how often are you going to encounter it? Extremely rarely I can assure you. Even if you hear music on that specific Pipe Organ, only rarely are you going to hear the lowest notes.

So, what is possible in theory and what is likely in practice are two very different things.

In my own experience with relatively large drivers, nothing below about 28hz has any characteristic of a tone or a note. If that is so, then what is the purpose of ultra deep Subwoofers. In my view, it is not for a note or tone, as in the deep rumble of Warp Engines, but rather Shock Waves. That deep response is for impact when they throw a wall of sound at you. High impact, low frequency, but low duration.

So, I never claimed that deep bass has no value of any kind. Rather it has value in the perspective in which it is used. The same is true of Surround Sound, just because I prefer not to use it, does not mean I recognize no value in it.

Primarily for music, and primarily for the kind of music people are actually likely to encounter, response down to 30hz (more or less) is sufficient to fill the needs of most people. Would I like deeper response, certainly, do I need deeper response ...well... no, not for how and what I listen to.

I noticed the person scoffing at my system has SIXTEEN 15" subwoofer. Fine, I'm sure that sounds great, but I suspect those SIXTEEN 15" Subwoofers cost more than my entire system, especially once contained, wired, and installed.

I never said you couldn't do better, I simply said that for most people it is generally not necessary. I've felt, literally felt, the impact of my system. It does a pretty good job, and yes, the room does shake during an action scene. No, it doesn't shake like 16x15" subwoofer, but I'm not sure I could fit 16x15" subwoofer in my room in their original packing boxes, much less laid out in any kind of practical configuration.

For most people under most circumstance, with most common budgets, and especially so for music, you don't need much below 30hz, and the single stereo speaker that can give you more depth is rare and expensive indeed. That doesn't mean you can't want it or that you can't have it, but for most people, you don't need it.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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Jameskatie

Distinguished Member
I'm not scoffing at your system but you keep saying you don't need/benifit etc and you have never experienced it. If you don't think there are any details in bass notes that low you are wrong you just need the system to show it :)
 

Jameskatie

Distinguished Member
Oh and my entire baffle wall takes up less room space than your free standing setup so it is possible :)
 

BlueWizard

Distinguished Member
I'm saying for most people under most circumstances with most common budgets and especially for music, chasing sub-30hz sound will either compromise your system or bankrupt you.

I'm not saying deeper bass has no value under the right circumstances. I'm saying for practical people in practical circumstance with practical budgets, you either compromise the overall quality for deep bass or you spend yourself broke.

I'm not saying there is no benefit, I'm say that for most people there is no practical benefit.

For example, the Dali Helicon 800 is rated at 31hz at -3db. -3dB is virtually flat, at a still very usable -6dB, we can safely anticipate 25hz. Nice speaker, as it well should be for £7000.

The Focal Electra 1038BE is rated at 26hz at -6dB. Very nice, as it well should be for £7600.

I'm sure you are going to counter with Subwoofers. But I don't see subwoofers of value in an expensive system UNLESS you have Electronic Bass Management of both the Front and Subs. The difficulty with a Sub is getting it to seamlessly blend with the Fronts. Without Electronic Bass Management, it is too much of a compromise. Especially in an expensive system.

However, there are Stereo amps/pre-amps, and of course virtually all AV Amps, that have Electronic Bass Management, and within a limited context, that solves that problem. But AV Receivers compromise the system in other ways, at least for music. Though if you have enough money, there are AV Receivers that are very good, stellar, at music playback; it just takes a sizable pile of money.

Steve/bluewizard
 

Matyam

Active Member
my Sub1 has 6 x 8 inch drive unif I hadts and to date, I have never heard a Sub that plays Louder or Deeper, so its not all about size. :cool:

Steve's guide is very helpful to get a general idea of how much air would be shifted for a given size drive unit compared to another, but he is only quoting total area's as a guide and should save people a lot of hassle in having to work it out for themselves, so thanks Steve. :smashin:

How people implement the drive units is a totally different subject.
Ah yes the sub 1 and 2 I have heard the sub 2 at bristol and they look wonderful and sounded epic and If i had the money to spend they would be my choice but maybe the psa triax !
 

Matyam

Active Member
BlueWizai post: 21086601 said:
20hz is something of a piped dream, as much as some people see it as a goal, it is not really necessary for music, and though nice for movies, equally not really necessary.

I have an unusual system in that I have two amps and two pair of speakers. My old set of speakers, which I keep because having them and using them is worth more than the small amount of money I could get for them, have 12" bass drivers and horn Midrange and Tweeters. My main/new speakers have 2x8" bass drivers each. I would rate the 12" DIY speakers at best at 35hz, and at -6db, the 2x8" are rated at 28hz. During action movies, I've felt bass impact that cause the upholstery on my chair to flex under the impact. I've felt bass so intense the whole room shook. So, exactly what is it I'm missing again????

As to speaker designs, this is my latest -

traptwr2-jpg.476954


Three of the design goals were -

- Separate cabinets for the low bass
- Trapezoidal shape
- Deep bass impact, but not over bearing or droning bass. I want deep but tight.

In the modern world most people want very slender unobtrusive cabinets, so this would not work for them. However, being Old School, and not minding big monkey coffins, I'm OK with a 10" bass driver. Especially given that I have 12" bass drivers now.

In the drawing, the grid is 2.5" per square. So as drawn the cabinets are 37.5 inches high and about 15 inches wide at the bottom, though if I ever build them, those dimension would likely change out of necessity.

The design on the left is a 3.5-way. The 10" runs in parallel with the 8" at the lowest frequencies, probably below about 200hz. And NO, it is not a Subwoofer, just a straight up woofer.

The design on the right, is a 3-way, 10" bass, 2x4" midrange, and a tweeter.

Using the Relative Size information we have, we discover a 10" is relatively 11.65, and 2x8" is 13.52. We can divide this how we choose, but 11.65/13.52 = 0.862, meaning that a 10" bass driver is 86.1% the size of 2x8" bass drivers. While slightly smaller, a 10" bass driver will inherently go lower.

Given the large diameter bass driver and the large cabinet size, this would likely have loud and deep bass response. Given the speakers I was considering for this design, they have a Sensitivity of 87db, and a rated bass response of 27hz, though with room gain, likely a bit deeper. I think we could arrive at a design that was flat to 27hz, and given typical speakers, we could estimate a -6db response of 22hz. Whether that would prove out in the final design remains to be seen.

While the specs on the matching 8" driver are very close to the 10" bass driver, two 8" cost US$100 where as one 10" cost US$80. Given that you need double that amount for both speakers, I save $40.

Which is the best choice for any given person is up to that person. As it stands now, I'm going with 10" bass drivers, though a similar design could be accomplished with 2x8" bass drivers. If a narrow face to the room is important, then 2x8", if that is not such a great concern, then 1x10".

For what it is worth.

Steve/bluewizard
Im liking those designs steve but even with these cheapish 15" cerwin vegas go sub 20hz Iin my room dont think i could go back to small and dont want big rrectangle boxs, i would prefer not to have seperate subs if possible so have you any designs that would match my thinking thanks.
 

mattkhan

Distinguished Member
I'm saying for most people under most circumstances with most common budgets and especially for music, chasing sub-30hz sound will either compromise your system or bankrupt you.

I'm not saying deeper bass has no value under the right circumstances. I'm saying for practical people in practical circumstance with practical budgets, you either compromise the overall quality for deep bass or you spend yourself broke.

I'm not saying there is no benefit, I'm say that for most people there is no practical benefit.

For example, the Dali Helicon 800 is rated at 31hz at -3db. -3dB is virtually flat, at a still very usable -6dB, we can safely anticipate 25hz. Nice speaker, as it well should be for £7000.

The Focal Electra 1038BE is rated at 26hz at -6dB. Very nice, as it well should be for £7600.
Since when did £7k a pair of speakers become the typical budget :eek:
 

BlueWizard

Distinguished Member
Im liking those designs steve but even with these cheapish 15" cerwin vegas go sub 20hz Iin my room ....

Which Cerwin Vegas are those. From what I've seen, C-V don't go as deep as their size would imply.

For example these 1x15" Cerwin (CVi-152) are rated at 69hz at -3dB.

The CVP-1152 1x15" go down to 50hz.

The XLS-15 (1x15") is rated at 38hz at -3db with an extremely sharp drop off below that.

XLS 15 CERWIN VEGA Floorstanding Tower Speaker

The SL-15 (1x15") are probably rated the best at 28hz (unqualified).

SL-15 15" 3-Way Floor Tower Speaker

Now that said, I have no doubt that any of these would kick some serious ass based on overall impression.

It is hard to find speakers, that are not crazy expensive, that go much below 30hz. It is a matter of sheer practicality.

Now Subwoofers are another matter, but as I explained these are very limited purpose built speakers that are difficult to seamlessly integrate without Electronic Bass Management.

Steve/bluewizard
 

BlueWizard

Distinguished Member
Since when did £7k a pair of speakers become the typical budget :eek:

You can't be serious. Clearly I was talking about two separate things; making two separate but related points.

One is the context of the information I provided, and the other point is, that you can find speakers (stand alone single cabinet speakers) that do go sub-30hz, but you have to pay dearly for them. At least if you want them to sound good, you have to pay dearly for them. And if you want speakers that truly go 25hz or less, then we venture out of "Pay Dearly" and into "King's Ransom" territory. If you happen to have a King's Ransom laying around, more power to you.

The information I provided would only logically be used for Single Cabinet generally Full Range Speakers. Subwoofers are a completely different and generally unrelated conversation. Though one could still use this information to compare the relative size of Subwoofers. If you need an 18", 24", or 30" subwoofers, I gave the formulas I used to find the numbers I posted.

We are drifting off topic, though I'm OK with that. The conversation still seem informative to casual readers.

Steve/bluewizard
 

BlueWizard

Distinguished Member
Oh and my entire baffle wall takes up less room space than your free standing setup so it is possible :)

According to my calculations about 1.5 ft tall by 22.7 feet wide to realistically place 16x15" subwoofers. I'm guessing a minimum of 3 feet deep. That's about a 34 ft² face. If we double them up, then 3 ft tall and 11.4 feet wide. Hope you really do have a big room. And I hope you have lots of bracing on the front baffles.

16x15" Sub drivers seem excessive to me, but then even with my modest system, if my family knew how much money I had into this, they would probably have me committed. If you can make it work, more power to you.

Though just a guess.

Steve/bluewizard
 

mattkhan

Distinguished Member
You can't be serious. Clearly I was talking about two separate things; making two separate but related points.

One is the context of the information I provided, and the other point is, that you can find speakers (stand alone single cabinet speakers) that do go sub-30hz, but you have to pay dearly for them. At least if you want them to sound good, you have to pay dearly for them. And if you want speakers that truly go 25hz or less, then we venture out of "Pay Dearly" and into "King's Ransom" territory. If you happen to have a King's Ransom laying around, more power to you.

The information I provided would only logically be used for Single Cabinet generally Full Range Speakers. Subwoofers are a completely different and generally unrelated conversation. Though one could still use this information to compare the relative size of Subwoofers. If you need an 18", 24", or 30" subwoofers, I gave the formulas I used to find the numbers I posted.

We are drifting off topic, though I'm OK with that. The conversation still seem informative to casual readers.

Steve/bluewizard
Your post implies that is the sort of money you need to spend to get a system that seriously goes down to, or under, 30Hz and that one would be happy with in a serious music system. Perhaps you didn't intend this but it is how it came across. Anyway this is clearly false though solutions available at a realistic price are aimed more at the enthusiast (e.g. miniDSP or pro audio interfaces) rather than picking it up off the shelf at a high St shop.
 

Jameskatie

Distinguished Member
Also Steve your assumptions on nearly every point above is wrong, my baffle wall is not 3ft deep it's 650mm, probably less than the distance you have behind your free standing mains :)

Also I'm currently mid build and only have 4 of the 16 installed and even when I had two in the old room still provided me with good 20hz output.
Also it hasn't cost anywhere near what you think and I don't know why you think there either has to be compromise in sound quality or bankrupt your self, there is a lot of inbetween from those ends of the scale and I guess it also depends how much you earn.

Honestly think your views on the whole subject would changed if you experienced a properly setup capable system. If your ever in the uk your welcome to experience my little setup
 

MemX

Well-known Member
I thought Steve was UK-based?? As above, though, I would also extend an invite to him if he was ever in the country :)

I get what you're saying, Steve, I understand that what is 'necessary' and what falls under 'ever diminishing returns' are two different things, but the points being made are that one doesn't *have* to compromise on a poorer quality sound or spend a lot of money instead - DIY, for example, offers excellent value for money and can be individually tailored to the room and personal taste (in size, finish, output, range, etc), and while 16 x 15" drivers might look excessive, for example, it allows a lot of system headroom and, therefore, sound reproduction that has minimal cone movement so is tight, free from distortion and also effortless, and not just for "...Shock Waves... ...for impact when they throw a wall of sound at you. High impact, low frequency, but low duration.", but also for scenes like the helicopter scene in Lone Survivor (IIRC) which has over one continuous minute of helicopter sounds with fundamentals down to 6Hz. The argument over whether <20Hz is necessary has been done to death so I won't restart it here, as Kelvin has already touched on, but from my in-progress build you can see my views on it ;)

It appears that you are a fan of 2-channel stereo played through (expensive) full(ish ;)) range floorstanding speakers and (expensive) 'audiophile' equipment with free-standing crossovers and no electronic equalisation or time-alignment, which I understand to be a classic audiophile taste and belief as the best way to listen to music - would that be correct?

'Modern' ways of achieving a 'good' sound across the full bandwidth (down to single digit Hz, via AVRs, electronic EQ, large-diameter sub + satellite speaker combos) should not necessarily be dismissed as inferior or 'excessive' or, I think I saw you mention, 'slow' (ref: your design goal being "Deep bass impact, but not over bearing or droning bass. I want deep but tight.").

I don't understand what you mean when you say chasing sub-30Hz will "compromise you system", or that AVRs that "compromise the system in other ways"! You say that subs are difficult to integrate properly without EQ, but a 'full range' speaker will surely just have inbuilt crossovers that make sure each speaker within it is integrated correctly - why not remove the most challenging sound band from them (bass) and give it a dedicated, specialised solution in the form of a separate sub with external crossover and management? It frees one from the restrictions placed on one if one was previously trying to contain it within a one-box 'full range' solution.

Related to the above, you have said subwoofers only operate within "an EXTREMELY narrow range of sound". While, say, 100Hz and down is 'only' 100Hz and a common crossover point on a sub/sats system, if anything they actually operate over a wider range than other speakers within a system. 3Hz to 120Hz (Dolby-defined requirements for subwoofer capabilities, IIRC) is 5 and a quarter octaves:
3 to 6
6 to 12
12 to 24
24 to 48
48 to 96
96 to 120 (of 192)
whereas if a woofer then covers from 120Hz up to, what, 2000hz? (going from your previous post):
120 to 240
240 to 480
480 to 960
960 to 1920
1920 to 2000 (of 3840)
that's only 4-and-a-tiny-bit octaves.

Yes, woofers could be used to go lower - say 30Hz (at a push, going from what's been suggested earlier) to 2000, but that's then 6-and-a-tiny-bit octaves. If subs are used across a wider range, say to the 400Hz crossovers used in the Steinway Lyngdorf systems, that's also 6-and-a-tiny-bit octaves, so they can be at least as important as a woofer, if not more so.

Ultimately, how one employs drivers of whatever size is personal taste, as MIKEVO said earlier. I think those of us with 'excessive' systems would just rather have those who have pre-judgements on them actually come and listen to them and then have an informed experience of the benefits they can bring! I only have half my sub build in place so far and yet it 'disappears' into music while having all the mid-range 'chest punch' and sofa-shaking depth needed for films, without any "over bearing or droning bass [that isn't] tight." Just ask the_dude2, who came round the other day and said he wanted to have the other one when it's ready! lol

So, to summarise my verbal diarrhoea, yes, you can survive with a system that only covers down to 30Hz... but if you want the deep resonances of music venues and 'real life' film effects that have a physical weight to them and draw you into the film, you simply have to go low as you can. Why draw an arbitrary line in the sand at 30Hz or 20Hz as being 'worthwhile' and anything lower than that as 'unnecessary' because it takes more effort to go beyond that? If it exists in real life I want to hear and feel it in a piece of music or a film, and I don't think such views should be dismissed as excessive or unnecessary by those who have never experienced them! We are humans, skilled at making the best we can out of our world's resources - why be half-hearted! :)
 

Jameskatie

Distinguished Member
Good post memx, but also the time It took you to type that you could have got REW up and running :p hint hint.

Just on the subject of music and the line take in previous posts about lowest notes of instruments etc is pretty irrelivent nowadays as nearly all the albums I listen too have real low electronic stuff in them
 

MemX

Well-known Member
haha Fair point :p

I didn't start off planning to write so much! :laugh:
 

Matyam

Active Member
Which Cerwin Vegas are those. From what I've seen, C-V don't go as deep as their size would imply.

For example these 1x15" Cerwin (CVi-152) are rated at 69hz at -3dB.

The CVP-1152 1x15" go down to 50hz.

The XLS-15 (1x15") is rated at 38hz at -3db with an extremely sharp drop off below that.

XLS 15 CERWIN VEGA Floorstanding Tower Speaker

The SL-15 (1x15") are probably rated the best at 28hz (unqualified).

SL-15 15" 3-Way Floor Tower Speaker

Now that said, I have no doubt that any of these would kick some serious ass based on overall impression.

It is hard to find speakers, that are not crazy expensive, that go much below 30hz. It is a matter of sheer practicality.

Now Subwoofers are another matter, but as I explained these are very limited purpose built speakers that are difficult to seamlessly integrate without Electronic Bass Management.

Steve/bluewizard
Cerwin vega E715 steve bought on a whim after wearing my sub out twice 102 db sensitivity 400 watt capability 126 db limit 26-20khz or sub 20hz in room they push a lot of air and I like them.
 

Matyam

Active Member
Cerwin vega E715 steve bought on a whim after wearing my sub out twice 102 db sensitivity 400 watt capability 126 db limit 26-20khz or sub 20hz in room they push a lot of air and I like them.


Oh and anything over -20volume Is really pushing AIR
 

Matyam

Active Member
Which Cerwin Vegas are those. From what I've seen, C-V don't go as deep as their size would imply.

For example these 1x15" Cerwin (CVi-152) are rated at 69hz at -3dB.

The CVP-1152 1x15" go down to 50hz.

The XLS-15 (1x15") is rated at 38hz at -3db with an extremely sharp drop off below that.

XLS 15 CERWIN VEGA Floorstanding Tower Speaker

The SL-15 (1x15") are probably rated the best at 28hz (unqualified).

SL-15 15" 3-Way Floor Tower Speaker

Now that said, I have no doubt that any of these would kick some serious ass based on overall impression.

It is hard to find speakers, that are not crazy expensive, that go much below 30hz. It is a matter of sheer practicality.

Now Subwoofers are another matter, but as I explained these are very limited purpose built speakers that are difficult to seamlessly integrate without Electronic Bass Management.

Steve/bluewizard
Also tamed with yamaha ydg 2030 graphic equalizer for music foam in ports otherwise boom boom.
 

BlueWizard

Distinguished Member
Cerwin vega E715 steve bought on a whim after wearing my sub out twice 102 db sensitivity 400 watt capability 126 db limit 26-20khz or sub 20hz in room they push a lot of air and I like them.

E-SEVEN-15 (E715) or did you mean the E315? I downloaded the "E" series brochure, and didn't see an 715 model. The top was the E315 in a 3-way configuration with a single 15" woofer.

The E315 is 102db Sensitivity, 400w, 28hz to 20khz (unqualified).

It is one thing to say you have 20hz response in your room, but for that to mean anything we would need to know how you measured that.

The true test is to normalize the volume at 1khz, then sweep down as see how loud 20hz is in your room. I'm guessing, not as loud as you would think.

I have some speakers that are rated at 80hz on the low end (cheap bookshelf), but I can hear 30hz very nicely from them ...IF... I turn the volume up, but that is cheating. The question is how much low end can you hear if you play a 1khz tone and set the volume to a comfortable workable level, then sweep up and down the frequency range. I think on both ends it is not likely to be a loud as you implied.

However, you are right in-room response boosts the bass, so perhaps you are getting decent sound at 20hz, but I would like to see it measured along side the same volume setting at 1khz.

Still, sweet powerful speakers. I sure you enjoy some great movie watching experiences with that system. I suspect it brings both the Thunder and the Light.

Steve/bluewizard
 

BlueWizard

Distinguished Member
Your post implies that is the sort of money you need to spend to get a system that seriously goes down to, or under, 30Hz and that one would be happy with in a serious music system. Perhaps you didn't intend this but it is how it came across. Anyway this is clearly false though solutions available at a realistic price are aimed more at the enthusiast (e.g. miniDSP or pro audio interfaces) rather than picking it up off the shelf at a high St shop.

But the subject at hand is drivers and speakers, not systems. To get a single full-range speaker that goes Sub-30hz is not going to be cheap, and to get one the goes near 25hz or less is going to be God-aweful expensive.

I'm very careful to qualify my statements so the context is clear. You seem to be ignoring all context I provide.

As to 16x15" bass drivers, at £50/sub-driver, that is £800 plus cabinets and wiring. Frankly a £50 raw Sub-driver is pretty run of the mill. Likely you need to spend £100 to £300 per Sub-driver to get real quality. That means the raw Sub-driver price is going to be between £1600 and £4800.

So, you either compromise your system with lesser Sub-Drivers, or for most, you compromise your system by dumping thousands from a limited budget on Subwoofer overkill.

Personally, I would rather put those thousands for the Subs into better front speakers. But then...that's just me.

Curious, what do you plan to use to drive 16 Fifteen inch Subwoofers?

Steve/bluewizard
 
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mattkhan

Distinguished Member
I'm not the one with 16 drivers btw, I just have 1 lonely 15" atm (soon to become 2 18").

But the subject at hand is drivers and speakers, not systems. To get a single full-range speaker that goes Sub-30hz is not going to be cheap, and to get one the goes near 25hz or less is going to be God-aweful expensive.

I'm very careful to quality my statements so the context is clear. You seem to be ignoring all context I provide.
No I'm not ignoring it, I just think it's an arbitrary distinction that you have drawn and that helps no one who is trying to build a better system. Conceptually there is no difference at all between a system (even a mono setup if you want to stick to that arbitrary definition) that includes 1 or more subwoofers and one that just uses a single enclosure for each speaker. They are all still just n way systems with different physical implementations, i.e. we simply have a collection of drivers where each driver handles a specific frequency range and some sort of crossover is used to hand over from 1 to the next. When designing this speaker/system, you can choose to ignore the different challenges that arise from attempting to accurately reproduce low frequency wavelengths (e.g. irrelevance of localisation, massively more air to shift, modal resonances) or not.

As to the importance of low frequency, and to extend @MemX 's point, independent studies repeatedly confirm the importance of low frequency content to individual preferences. C20 of Toole summarises the results of some experiments conducted early this century which resulted in a predictive model for the quality of a loudspeaker system. I think it's the one covered by this patent & LFX is defined as the -6dB point relative to output in the 300Hz-10kHz.

upload_2014-9-1_9-56-52.png


A similar series of experiments by the same people then compared different EQ systems and this clearly showed that the overall preference includes both a consider of quality (smoothness of response etc) and extension all the way down to 20Hz.

upload_2014-9-1_10-7-11.png


In the end, it's a perfectly valid choice to decide not to pursue full audible bandwidth (let alone truly full bandwidth) reproduction but let's be clear that that is purely individual preference (or is something dictated by individual constraints) and has nothing to do with those frequencies not be desirable/necessary to the average person who wants their system to sound good. To repeatedly state otherwise is simply misleading to those people who just want some guidance on what might improve their system.
 

MIKEVO

Well-known Member
A BK XLS-200 is only -6db at 17hz and costs £314.95. Not expensive at all.

So you can get any speaker system to go down to 20hz for an additional £314.95. :clap:

I would just like to point out that I am a Paradigm Sub1 owner and am in no way affiliated with BK, nor have I ever owned a BK, but never say never, although I never hope to at this stage.

Just to prove a point.:D
 

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