1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

REL Sub-terfuge

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by uncle eric, Feb 23, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. uncle eric

    uncle eric
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Why do some manufacturers insist on going backwards for the sake of following marketing trends?

    Case in point REL and there Q150-Q200 range. Looking closely at the Q150-Q200, REL seem to be following in the footsteps of Bob Carvers Sunfire True subs that have been around quite a while. For those that dont know, the True sub was the first 'High power small box sub'. It's a one foot cube thats powered by a 2700 watt amp (yes thats 2700 not 270). The idea being of course that the high power will make up for the very small internal volume of the sub. While the 'True' has been fairly successful from a marketing perspective, they are far from the ideal sub. Having listened to these in two different systems, I consider it more a lifestyle product than an accurate means of offering good clean low end. Does it go very low? yes. Does it go very loud? again yes. But as many will know, these qualitys are not the only criteria of a good sub. There's a little more to it than that.

    Going back to the Q150-Q200, I've installed both of these horrible subs (in pairs) and both times been disappointed with the end result and in the case of the Q150's even had to return one for faults. Whats wrong with these subs? The question is whats right with them. Yes theres plenty of low end but its inaccurate and very slow. As for their suitability with music. Forget it. Absolutely dreadfull.

    I refuse to use anymore of the above subs. In this price range, I would rather push the customer for a tad more money and go for REL's 'proper subs', namely the Strata III or Storm III.

    The problem I have is that most customers who are about to have an install or are deliberating before the final ok often like to do some research by rummaging through our UK publications as a reassurance thing if you like. Who knows, Eric might be giving the wrong advise?
    Whoops he is. Everywhere you look, glowing reports for both the 150 and the 200 model. ARE THESE WRITERS MAD. Or do their ears need syringing. Come on people, get real. Alvin Gold, you need an ear upgrade mate.

    REL's previous Q models the Q Bass 40/50 are in my opinion in a different class to these horrors. As for the Q100E, I believe this to be one of the best subs ever made by anybody. Correctly set up in pairs, these things are worth their weight in gold. (I think Gordon can testify to that).
    REL, stop going backward. I know the USA market is vast, but dont pander to it by making lifestyle products. Take a look at how seriously Bose are taken now.

    OK, Asbestos suit is now on. Bring on the flames.

    Eric
     
  2. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
    AVForums Founder Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Messages:
    13,729
    Products Owned:
    6
    Products Wanted:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Ratings:
    +9,403
    Just guessing here but I think the subs sold in the largest numbers in the USA are the higher-end ST range.
    The Sunfire subs used a push-pull system totally different to the RELs.
     
  3. russraff

    russraff
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2000
    Messages:
    2,311
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Newcastle
    Ratings:
    +50
    Uncle Eric,

    I couldn't agree more. I found the Q150 and Q200 to be over priced, and not nearly as powerful as expected. The similarity to the Sunfire range hasn't been lost on me either. I do remember reading about Richard E Lord visiting the factory where the Sunfire drivers are made, prior to the launch of the Q200.
    I would say that my old Q100 was a better sub than the Q200, but nowhere near as competent as the Strata III.
    I don't rely on reviews anymore. Frankly, the only judge should be you, and a review should be used for discussing features or highlighting problems etc.

    It is comforting to know that it isn't just me that thinks this way.

    Russell
     
  4. bob007

    bob007
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Iv'e owned a few subs in the past, from budget to the REL Q50 i own now, and to be honest i would not part with it.
    Have looked at upgrading it in the past but never heard anything to beat it, unless it was way over my budget, but now i'm thinking of getting a second, in my opinion this will be a far better upgrade than if i went out and bought a single sub of the same value as 2xREL Q50's.
    Don't you find in most cases not just in home cinema, that if a manufacturer has a good product instead of building on it they throw all that out of the window and start following their competitors, regardless of whether the design of that product is any good or not. In todays technology i would think it's very hard to to design a product and keep ahead of your competitors, which i think REL have done up till now. So why change it, if you have a good product keep it.
     
  5. Zone

    Zone
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2001
    Messages:
    6,526
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Barnsley
    Ratings:
    +2,114
    I agree with you on the 100 Eric as this would be my Sub of choice finances permitting, however a friend of mine has one.

    He showed it off by firstly playing a mix of classical and then Rock in stereo mode, very musical indeed I liked the slam and depth options, in slam mode you not only hear the music but very definately feel it, sound quality did seem to drop off in this mode but what the hell:D

    Then we watched a few movies and WOW turning it right up it actually dislodged some bits and pieces off a nearby shelf, now how cool is that. By the way he lives in a detached house the lucky sod..

    But I notice Eric that you said you had two:eek:

    Thats just plain greedy IMO:p

    Si
     
  6. Ian J

    Ian J
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    25,529
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,906
    It takes a brave man to challenge accepted wisdom especially when it is one of the basic tenets of home cinema "REL is king".

    I have had my Q Bass for five or six years and think that it is a wonderful beast despite only pumping out 40 watts when current models seem to need kilowatts to drive them. I would like to upgrade to something smaller but not of less quality but have two problems.

    Firstly I don't want to spend half of the nation's GDP on a replacement and secondly and perhaps more importantly I don't trust myself to audition a sub properly.

    It is a highly specialised piece of kit and far more difficult to audition properly than amps or speakers and I am not sure that I could necessarily make the right choice after a demo.

    The answer would therefore be to go along with perceived wisdom and buy an REL 150E because that is what everybody says is the best small mid price sub.

    A couple of old threads spring to kind. Our beloved administrator once stated that he thought that people praised their own equipment because they didn't want to admit that they had bought the wrong thing. One could extend this by adding that they probably didn't know that better sound per pound could be attained anyway as it is obvious from many of the posts here that a lot of people do not audition speakers but look for recommendations and then buy it as cheaply as possible over the internet without ever hearing them first.

    One week later these newbies are back on the forum as experts urging others to buy the same. I have noticed several cases of newbie to expert within seven days.

    Secondly, I think that it was Nic Rhodes who posted about Chinese Whispers where internet rumours concerning the unreliability or otherwise of kit grew and grew, just like my mother's stories of my misbehavious when a kid have also grown with each retelling and become part of accepted wisdom.

    I have never seen anything posted before saying that the 150E was anything less than highly desirable but now that Eric has "come out" it is interesting that a couple of others have already agreed with him and it will be interesting to see how this thread develops.

    I for one, would much rather take Eric's advice as he obviously knows what he is talking about and probably has much more experience in the real world with real world budgets than magazines who have a listen for a while and then on to the next thing to test.
     
  7. philmate

    philmate
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2000
    Messages:
    214
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Southend-on-sea
    Ratings:
    +4
    I can 'feel' the pain now.

    Philmate.:D
     
  8. Noman

    Noman
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Do you think I shall give my Rel Q150 to the cats to play with.
    I think the REL Q150 is a very good Sub in it´s size/price range. Of course under other circumstances I would like to have 2 Studio III, 2 Revel B15, 2 HGS 18 and 2 audiophysics Rhea subs and maybe som more....

    What´s your point ??? Dont buy a sub for under 1000 GBP???
    Don´t buy a sub that isn´t the size of a nuclear plant???

    What car do you drive? How many motorbikes do you own and which models? Do you have a Yacht? These are areas that I know much more of than subwoofers and I would be happy to tell you what you should have baught instead...
     
  9. KarlRobinson

    KarlRobinson
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2002
    Messages:
    159
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Bedford
    Ratings:
    +0
    Just in the process of buying a REL Q200, all I can say is uttlerly brilliant. Tried various other subs in the showroom and REL was a clear winner.

    I've got two RELQ100's in a AV room at work and they are way boomier than a Q200.
     
  10. Ian J

    Ian J
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    25,529
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,906
    My understanding of Eric's point is that far from spending £1,000 you would be better off buying a second hand Q100 for £250

    At least you admit that you don't know much about subwoofers
     
  11. uncle eric

    uncle eric
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Stuart,
    The ST range does sell in the highest numbers but the Q range is hot on its heels thanks to catching the airflow of the 'True' sub which was REL's intention in the first place. Very clever move on REL's part. Over here of course its the other way around. The Q150-Q200 are clearly marketed at the growing home cinema scene which has seen fantastic growth since the advent of the shiny 5" silver disc.

    Sunfire True subs are not push pull design. These are dual driver models such as M&K's MX700, 150, 350 etc.

    Best Wishes
    Eric
     
  12. uncle eric

    uncle eric
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Karl,
    Before you get rid of your Q100's (hopefully in my direction) may I respectfully suggest that if you ever happen to be in the North London area, come and visit me to hear how they CAN sound.

    Eric
     
  13. uncle eric

    uncle eric
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Yes

    Eric
     
  14. M Bradbury

    M Bradbury
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I drive an Audi TT. Is that any good ?

    Mark
     
  15. Noman

    Noman
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    That´s why I have baught my gear at a local HiFi specialist who has been in business for many years and who has got a very good reputation.

    I will ask them how they actually could recommend this "horror sub" to me..
     
  16. Noman

    Noman
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    IMHO you should try to get rid of it and try to find a second hand BMW M Roadster. ;)
     
  17. KarlRobinson

    KarlRobinson
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2002
    Messages:
    159
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Bedford
    Ratings:
    +0
    Eric,

    I'm not getting rid of the Q100's, they are not mine but we use them at my place of work.

    Why is it every magazine I have ever picked up rates the Q series.
    Namely the Q150/200/201 ???
     
  18. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
    AVForums Founder Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Messages:
    13,729
    Products Owned:
    6
    Products Wanted:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Ratings:
    +9,403
    Hold on a sec. Eric's opinion about the Q range are, with respect, only his subjective opinion. No more or less valid than anyone else with some experience listening to sound systems.
    I've never heard the Q range, but if asked, would recommend people audition them (along with other good subs) based on good reviews.

    I can imagine a senario here where someone has bought a Q150 on the basis of advice and reviews, is perfectly happy with it, and then on the basis of Eric's opinion read here, decides it's a 'horror sub'. This reminds me of that fast show character in the pub who agrees with everyone just to be popular.
    I would advise people listen to the sub themselves and form their own opinion.
     
  19. Timmie Boy

    Timmie Boy
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2000
    Messages:
    54
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    So Eric, you're the golden b*llocks are you? Your ears have descended from the wonderful heavens above. The mighty Lord (no pun intended) pointed down on you and said "he is the chosen one, Eric will have the mighty ears for auditioning all sub woofers. Eric will go and tell the world which sub to choose or not to choose".
    Well thanks Eric, I will ditch my ears as obviously you know what WE ALL like.
    I respect your opinion, but don't forget at the end of the day its what sounds right to you. If I want to spend 500 quid and it sounds right and does the job, whats your problem? Are you saying that there are better subs at that price level?
    Or are you a clever sales person from REL trying to persuade us to spend more!
    Obviously a last ditch attempt to stop people moaning about REL sub faults!
    Eric, go and take a cold shower and keep taking the medication.
     
  20. Noman

    Noman
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    On medication.. That´s what I suspected! ;)
     
  21. Ian J

    Ian J
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    25,529
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,906
    Is this the same Timmie Boy that has complained about his 150 since the day that he bought it and posted on 10th December that he was going to return it to the dealer and try something else ?
     
  22. Timmie Boy

    Timmie Boy
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2000
    Messages:
    54
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    Obviously, I've stood on the toes of 2 of Erics best mates (and probably more!). Eric started it when he said he'll put on the asbestos suit! So don't have a go at me!
    It's only harmless banter, don't take it so seriously. Now go and take a cold shower as well!
     
  23. General Skanky

    General Skanky
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2000
    Messages:
    4,206
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    71
    Ratings:
    +44
    Well, I'm a happy bunny. I have a Q Bass which is best.:D :rolleyes:
     
  24. uncle eric

    uncle eric
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Folks,

    First of all, this is a forum where people post opinions. Nothing more, nothing less.
    Every person has a choice of whose opinion (if any) they value. Be it a magazine writers, forum member or friend. Some have the confidence to rely on their own prowess as an audio/video observer/listener. If you think you know what to listen or look for, the latter is probably best.
    After all. Its your money, ears and eyes. You have to live with your choice of equipment. End of story.

    Getting back to answer some irrelevent and personal remarks,

    T.Boy,
    You must be a recent graduate of the Charles school of lunacy.
    In your delierious opposite stance of my Q150-Q200 opinion, you forgot to mention your undying happiness with your beloved Q150.

    Quote from T.Boy posted on 12/12/2001
    "I think REL have made a right balls up with this sub. They are supposed to be hand built, how the hell did they pass quality control with that hum. REL should have done more homework on the double insulated design. I think thats pretty shody workmanship. Yes, my drive unit vibrates too. Look, you only have to touch the rear control panel and change the tone of the hum. Your body can act as earth. I DONT BELIEVE THERE IS A BATCH PROBLEM-THEY ARE ALL MADE THE SAME.
    The thing is, some people might live with it. But of course what people dont realize is that the hum is probably affecting the overall performance of the sub. You cant get a clean sound if its already humming before you start!"

    A few days before that, T.Boy posted,
    "The REL is a total disgrace, taking it back to Sevenoaks and trying something else"

    Your comment suggesting that I may be a REL employee trying to convince people to buy the more expensive REL's by having a go at the Q150-Q200 is to put it politely, the most twisted piece of logic I've ever come across. Do you really think Mr Lord of REL would love to have someone like me working for them. I dont think so.

    Frankly I find your disapproval of my REL comments entirely weird. Especially taking into account your comments re the Q150 which are even more derogatory than mine.
    Is it something to do with throwing 500 quid down the drain?

    Mines one sugar by the way.

    Eric

    P.S. Noman,
    I notice from your past posts that you are also far from happy with your Q150.
    Quote,
    "I'm waiting for an upgrade. My dealer will change some components or even the whole back panel"

    Dont worry, T.Boy has enough medication for both of you.
     
  25. General Skanky

    General Skanky
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2000
    Messages:
    4,206
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    71
    Ratings:
    +44
    Aaaaah, would you like some petrol to help with that fire sir?:D

    I'm off to bed. I'll see what happens in the morning.
     
  26. starlight

    starlight
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Sorry to argue with Uncle E but the Carver sub I tried had one active driver and one passive, probably one reason for 'mudiness'. I assume that this is the push- pull referred to by Spectre

    rgds
     
  27. russraff

    russraff
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2000
    Messages:
    2,311
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Newcastle
    Ratings:
    +50
    Well, glad to see this forum is able to accept everyone’s point of view in an intelligent and well considered manner! ;)

    Timmie Boy,

    I don't think anyone has a problem if you like the Q150 you have bought. Like I (and others) have said in the past, the only judge as to what sounds good is you, and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. I must admit though, if I had £500 and the space, I would get a Servo 15.

    Russell
     
  28. Ian J

    Ian J
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    25,529
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,906
    Ridiculous comment. Everyone knows that Eric only has one mate and he hasn't been around for a while.
     
  29. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    Never one to turn down an opportunity to flame Uncle Eric, so here goes:D

    Well I think Eric is smack on with this one:(

    I installed a 201 in a close friends system. He bought it because he knew I was a REL user and it was small. We got it at a good price. Initially we were both quite impressed but as time went on both of us have become increasing dissatisfied with it. I have suggested a second one as there seems to two problems. One it is slow and two it doesn’t integrate well with the room despite our best efforts. The later may be improved with a second (hence my thinking) but the ‘slowness’ is something we can’t get right. Poor with films and crap with music.

    Now I am a long term Rel user. My Storm is an adequate product, decent enough with music but doesn’t have the balls needed with films IMHO. I had also became increasing dispondent with my ST range unit as well. I theorised a second might help but could not find one, I therefore demo’ed other subs and realised that even my then beloved Storm isn’t all it could be. Unfortunately it is almost heresy to say anything bad about REL. Well guys, things are not all perfect at REL.

    The final straw for me once speaking to some REL technical guy, asking for advice (re a possible second Storm), in trying to get the best out of my product (s). There was some telephone ‘fault’ where he could not hear me but unfortunately I could hear him. The effing and blinding (and full expetives) that came directed to me were un believable. He was obviously un aware that I could still hear everything. This guy obviously had no idea of customer service what so ever. It was then I really started to look elsewhere for my Sub and learned that for the same money I get a fast sub with REAL deep bass for much less money than any REL product. In fact I liked the new sub so much I bought 2. This has been a learning point for me because the sub I bought was available when I bought the Storm originally but I didn’t listen to it because of the retailer it came from.

    Now there are good and bad products in every range and I do like some REL products but I have learned (the hard way) five things from all this:

    1. Most people don’t know what true bass is. They are truly surprized when they do hear it for the first time (Eric dual 100s?)
    2. True bass needs acreage of drive unit (I use large 15 inch units that are almost 18 inches across the frame). I always like the idea of these 10 inch unit but in the small boxes they do not satisfy me. In larger units they seem to be much more effective.
    3. Servo / active systems are the way to go. Low, loud and at low distortion. This is what a sub should do.
    4. If REL treats customers like they treated me, they deserve to go out of business.
    5. There are many other better (if more difficult to obtain) subs out on the market. Many good loudspeaker firms now do them. I also have soft spots for Paradigm / M and K and Velodyne products, however some of the ‘imports’ can look expensive when brought over here. Look out for deals.

    I now do wonder how REL have this reputation, I guess it is down to Chinese whispers. Well done to Eric for having the balls and saying what many of us had thought in private.


    Now queue Spectre the quickest REL poster in the business:D
     
  30. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    13,976
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,779
    Eric is, as always, provocative. SS has sold REL on and off for a few years. We had a Q200 briefly and I, like those above, found it worse than a Q100.

    The advice to go listen for youself is the best. Find a dealer who is capable of setting the things up to a decent standard and trust them. The dealer will give you your money back if it doesn't work...try getting a magazine to give you money back when they arse it up.......

    Gordon
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...