Rel strata extension

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by Daneel, Aug 31, 2004.

  1. Daneel

    Daneel
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    From a discussion I'm having elsewhere.

    I find this hard to believe. Anyone have one of these things and agree/disagree?
     
  2. chrisgeary

    chrisgeary
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    i used to have one and can confirm that there was nothing much usable past 25hz. i don't have any charts, but suspect that at best its -3db at 25hz.
     
  3. Daneel

    Daneel
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    Thanks for the reply.

    I've asked for information on conditions around the measurement. I suppose if it was in the right room at a low volume it's possible.
     
  4. avanzato

    avanzato
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    The more info you have about the testing the better. The -3db point will almost certainly change depending on the position of the crossover for instance and as you know the room will change everything. However how loud you are playing shouldn't really alter it.

    I see no reason why the Strata can't go that low but it's how much and how clean is the bass you get.
     
  5. Daneel

    Daneel
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    ?

    A sub that size will need to boost the lower frequencies to get -3 dB @ 20Hz. The amp (100W?) is going to run out of power very quickly as the volume goes up. I can see it being -3 dB @ 20 Hz at 80 dB, but at 100 dB? No chance.
     
  6. samhain

    samhain
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    I would be surprised.

    If it's -3db at 25Hz then thats effectively half volume so anything lower would be difficult
     
  7. Nimby

    Nimby
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    A Finnish magazine tested the Strata (amongst others) and came up with the following figures. But do not quote me without seeing the review and figures for yourself. It wouldn't be fair on REL or the other manufacturers. BTW: Richard Lord did not attempt to deny these figures in a rather 'spirited' forum discussion held elsewhere.


    Rel Strata [email protected] [email protected]% distortion
    B&W ASW700............"[email protected] [email protected] 10%....."
    Velodyne SPL1200 ii...."[email protected]@.. 10%....."
    SVS 25-31 PCi..........."[email protected]@....3.75%.."

    Nimby
     
  8. Daneel

    Daneel
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    Thanks Nimby. Please post/pm me the link to that discussion.
     
  9. avanzato

    avanzato
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    I didn't think the Strata used Eq to boost the low end. The low frequency limit of a speaker is set by the port/box tuning and designers usually aim for the flattest response. The sub is unlikely to be limited by the power amp but by the excursion limits of the driver as to how much volume it can output at 20hz. If you try 100db at 20hz it's going to bottom out, 100db at 50hz it won't.

    The -3db is just where it rolls off in respect to the average of the rest of it's operating range. The strata will be limited as to how much volume it can do at 20hz but that doesn't mean that the -3db point is wrong.
     
  10. Daneel

    Daneel
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    I don't see how a sealed box that size is going to hit 20 Hz at any decent volume without doing so.
     
  11. avanzato

    avanzato
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    It more a question than a statement. I thought that the ST range were REL's 'pure' subs and they didn't use trickery but it's possible they use Eq. in everything now.
     
  12. bob1

    bob1
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    The Rel Strata is 20db down on the svs and the svs is quoted at +/- 3 dB 25 Hz so what does that make the rel.
     
  13. avanzato

    avanzato
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    Nimby posted this link of tests the other day subwoofers

    I will of course have to quote the SVS numbers. :devil:
    Measured in the corner at 2m distance and 10% THD the (old version) 20/39 manages:

    91db at 20hz but
    105.8 at 25hz and
    114.9 at 32hz

    What does that make the SVS? -14.8 at 20hz? -9.1 at 25hz?

    It's neither because they are the maximum output at those frequencies.

    The numbers Nimby quoted earlier just say (on face value) that REL won't go as loud at 20hz as the others can. Where is that review BTW?
    It's also worth remembering that the variation usually quoted is +-3db or 6db variation in total.
     
  14. Nimby

    Nimby
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    Yes I checked that old Nousaine review before posting. The Finnish review seemed rather flattering of the 25-31 PCi in comparison with the early SC20-39.

    A 20dB difference at less than one third the distortion for the 25-31PCi does seem to make the REL look rather poor in comparison. But does a 'paper' comparison tell the whole truth?

    I did try an extensive search for all Strata reviews earlier. But drew a blank at finding the Finnish review again.

    Considering the popularity of the Strata over the years the absence of technical reviews seems truly remarkable. Perhaps I simply used the wrong search terms? Loads of glowing subjective reviews by magazines and private owners. But not one objective or "lab report" online? Not one response graph for a single Strata of any age? Perhaps the magazine technical reviews are simply not published online? :confused:

    It seems that so many happy owners and a fifth generation model must confirm a decent enough product. They are used in some very high-end systems indeed! Perhaps room gain evens out subwoofer perfomance more than we'd care to admit? (in small to medium sized rooms at least)

    The 'big guns' only start to draw ahead when seriously high levels are demanded in larger spaces. Perhaps the human ear is also very poor at assessing distortion levels in the deep bass? At least one reviewer claimed higher distortion levels actually improved "slam". Since it lifted very low frequency sounds into the clearly audible region. This didn't meet with universal approval. :D

    Nimby
     
  15. avanzato

    avanzato
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    I sort of remember a semi technical review in HiFi-World years ago but I'll have binned that mag it's so old. It did confirm extension to below 20hz but no sort of distortion measurement IIRC. I'm old enough to have tried buying the original Strata when it first came out, REL weren't popular then, only one dealer locally could get them and subs were not the thing to sell. Weird boxes that you wouldn't add to your HiFi system as it'd just ruin the sound. How things have changed. They were however reassuringly expensive even then, I couldn't justify the expense.

    There's a 'bass maximiser' product that does just that, it adds higher harmonics to the bass and the perception of low bass appears. From what I understand it's quite effective.
     
  16. Daneel

    Daneel
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    I believe that is the case.
     
  17. Nimby

    Nimby
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    The small size of the Strata is remarkable. Much smaller than I had imagined.

    32.4 x 46.4 x 33.4 cm. (13" x 18" x 13") (10" drive unit)

    It's roughly a 40 litre box.

    My 16-46 is around 120 litres. (16"D x 46"H (-4" ?))

    That equates to a 50cm cube. (Or 20" x 20" x 20")

    One can easily see the appeal of the Strata from a furnishing point of view.

    An interesting comparison is with the new SVS PB10-ISD. (10" drive unit)

    28 x 46 x 53 cm ~ =93 litres! (15" x 18" x 21")

    Or 2.3 times the external volume of the Strata!

    Nimby
     
  18. rez

    rez
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    These numbers (except the SVS) might be from the Finnish Hifi-lehti (www.hifilehti.fi), issue 6-7/2004. The review is only available in the printed magazine. Some data (including the graphs with maximum SPLs) is available on their website, but only for registered users.

    Please note that SVS was not mentioned in that review. I don't think Hifi-lehti is willing to risk problems with advertisers - so they don't touch any of the self imported products.
     
  19. jag77

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    I did use a SPL meter to chart the in-room freq response of my Strata 2 and storm3 when I still had them.

    I was rather disappointed that it did not dig down as deep as other subs. Storm 3 rolled off quickly below 25hz, and at the same time, 3rd and higher order harmonics quickly crept up. Below 23hz, port noise was objectional at useful SPL levels.
     
  20. Nimby

    Nimby
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    Thanks for the link and useful information rez :)

    I'm fairly certain I didn't get these figures direct from the magazine's website.
    My Finnish is non-existent. So it would have been very difficult. :blush:

    I think I just copied them from another forum post.
    Just tidied them up a bit for posting.

    Mvh
    Nimby
     
  21. samhain

    samhain
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    So is the SVS an imposter to these review results.
     
  22. Nimby

    Nimby
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  23. samhain

    samhain
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    LOL. Thought not. :blush:

    No denying though they are incredible figures nonetheless.
     
  24. Ian J

    Ian J
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    The figures are from John Johnson's review in Secret's of Home Theater and I have it on good authority that he is one of the most respected equipment reviewers on the planet. :thumbsup:
     
  25. rez

    rez
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    I agree. But I don't think they should be grouped together - the SVS figures are 8" from the port (inroom, I think) while the rest are probably anechoic with a bit more distance.
     
  26. Nimby

    Nimby
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    rez

    Can you check the magazine for the actual method of testing? It would be an unusual magazine that had access to anechoic chambers. Though not impossible.

    The magazine tests could also be in a small room and at a short distance for all we know. Without your checking we'll probably never know. :)

    Nimby
     
  27. Nimby

    Nimby
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    Interesting post. I should have responded earlier.

    Testing the roll-off is simple enough.

    But how were you able to recognise the harmonics during testing?

    Nimby
     
  28. Mobster

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    I've read the magazine in question (from year 1989) and they measure those in real anechoic chamber from a distance of 1 meter. The chamber is located in Helsinki University of techonology if I remeber correctly. They measured frequency resonse, harmonic distortion, compression and how long it takes for an impulse to quiet down (what's the term for that?)

    Tested subwoofers:
    B&W ASW 700 (OK - better for movies)
    Elac Sub 211 (not a subwoofer but a woofer - avoid this one as a subwoofer)
    MJ Acoustics Reference 1 (OK when using for low volumes < 80db)
    REL Strata V (OK when using low volumes < 80db)
    Velodyne SPL 1200 II (most SPL and low distortion but a bit slow)
    Amphion Impact 500 (OK)
     
  29. avanzato

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    Does anyone get the feeling that we're getting short changed in the UK for good HiFi magazines. I'd sure like to see What Hifi's anechoic chamber, probably inside the heads of the reviewers as there doesn't seem to much happening up there.
     
  30. Nimby

    Nimby
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    Fascinating. Thanks for sharing this information. They do have access to an anechoic chamber then. Presumably the university has a relaxed attitude to the use of its publicly funded facilities.

    The term you are looking for is probably "decay".

    Interesting points. I'll leave others to discuss these results.
    The SVS figures do come from a different set-up and shouldn't really be directly compared with the Finnish magazine reviews.

    Though Dr Johnson mentions semi-anechoic conditions and room gain improving the performance of the 25-31 over his published results. His microphone position changed with frequency due to the distance between the top and bottom of the SVS cylinder related to the port and driver. Neither sharing the whole frequency band. But the microphone was presumably still much closer than the magazine tests used.

    Nimby
     

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