I'm always a bit confused why RELs don't go deeper. It's obviously a design choice as other subs with similar dimensions and power can do it. What do they focus on in their design process? What makes REL worth it when other subs can do 'more'?
the value for money element is a real issue here and as a result this should be reflected in the scores somehow, by all means state it sounds great and score that appropriately but then score its vfm the overall score then becomes more meaningful.It's very pretty and it's hard to judge anything you've not heard, but when you think you could get four BK's for the price of one of these it's difficult to understand the 8 for value.
Thanks @Steve Withers for the review.
Is it possible to (simultaneously) connect the high level and the low level signals and use them for movie purpose ?
One could use the front stage as "Large" in receiver setup, which can benefit from the high level input to make the subs an extension of the speakers, but also still throwing the LFE channel.
I read in few places that REL do offer this possibility.
Thanks in Advance.
...and the BKs are like Bosch white goods used to be (they're rubbish now). A great quality product, usually as reliable as Miele but for a fraction of the cost...But Rel are a bit like the Miele (white goods) of subwoofwers... You get a quality, reliable product.
I love this quote from that review:May I offer as an alternative, at almost exactly the same price and sticking with sealed subwoofers, the £1,799 SVS SB-4000, which was reviewed by Mr Withers's AVForums and Home Cinema Choice magazine colleague Mr Ed Selley almost two years ago here.
I'm always a bit confused why RELs don't go deeper. It's obviously a design choice as other subs with similar dimensions and power can do it. What do they focus on in their design process? What makes REL worth it when other subs can do 'more'?
Your query is a good one, but you may not like the answer: DSP-based woofer designs can generate impressive specs. DSP can be used to flatten out curves and generate cool looking graphs and, as your question focuses on, deliver very good numerical LF extension results. But it comes down to what values each company is focusing on.
At REL, we're never willing to chase specs at the expense of audible performance. DSP too often, and maybe its simply the engineers that are using DSP chips, not DSP itself (although our experiences working with it suggests at least part of it is intrinsic to DSP itself) don't produce the fluidity and natural tracking of dynamics that a good analog circuit can. There's an aliveness to what the HT delivers that none of the competitors listed deliver. Whenever you're using DSP to, for example, deliver flatter, lower extension specs, something is being robbed to produce that figure.
I can tell you that, having listened extensively to at least one of the competitors you reference, our ability to seamlessly transition up through middle and upper bass regions--areas critical for the baritone male spoken word in dialogue--is streets ahead of the competition. And why is this important? Gosh as a theatre maven and someone who has worked a board in transfer studios aren't I most concerned about the big explosions that shake the room? Of course those matter and, if you actually spent any time listening to a well set-up HT/1205 for instance, you would know that both it and its quality competition handle these aspects almost identically. Both play enormously loud, frankly louder than most normal folks can handle in the average living or drawing room. Both go down deep and rattle things about.
But switching back to the other 1:48 minutes of the movie wherein actual human beings, or droids, or fictitious creatures are interacting with the spoken word reveals a fascinating difference. The Serie HT actually possess many of the aural cues that have made so many customers happy with their T/i and S progenitors-those "shiny boxes" you were on about ; >). Both T/i and HT have an ability to blend and meld almost seamlessly with the main speakers (or center and surrounds in a REL3D set-up, which is modelled on Dolby's own requirements that ALL speakers in a proper theatre be capable of full range sound deliver of lower 20's-20khz)).
In doing so (blending with and becoming one with the speakers being supported by a REL), all kinds of important aural cues are revealed that set physical context for a scene, allow echoes to die away in concert with the visual data your eyes are seeing on screen. In other words, to provide all the thousands of elements of decoding spoken word, space and context within a scene that delivers scale cues. This ability forms the very basis of great theatre sound and helps REL theatre owners to more fully immerse themselves in the full, rich tapestry of sound reproduction that is the very basis for deep enjoyment of great theatre. And please remember this, the big explosions and effects so many of us enjoy in a big scene cannot possibly take their proper place without the small, quiet set-up scenes that ALWAYS preface a big effects-laden scene (it HAS to, otherwise the whole damned movie is just loud and nothing stands out) and almost always culminates in a quiet, small dialogue rich scene for the same reason.
Bottom line? We know a great deal about the art of movie making and our goal is to deliver products that bring out ALL aspects of the movie-making art. Frankly, I'm more than willing to sacrifice a meaningless spec by a couple of Hertz to achieve this result. I hope this better helps you understand our goals and why we occasionally are willing to not follow the herd since they are almost never trying to get to the same place as are we.
Interesting. BK doesn't use DSP does it?These are mainly aimed for hifi systems/light lounge cinema and especially for persons who are design conscious as @kbfern mentioned. This should be quite easy to "sell" for naggy wife, small size, shiny furniture like looks with the handle and all. I bet the price isn`t issue for these folks.
Year or two back when the HT range came i sended message to REL in a little provoke way asking about why they have gone the route they did with the design vs. competitors and why they are bit behind on the extension still as most people will put big emphasis on the FR specs. I knew writing this way could be the only way to get answer, and i did from the lead designer. I think this same talk about the poor extension is talked in many REL reviews, so hopefully this reply helps to open up their thoughts on the design principles. Hats off for the designer writing such detailed reply.
Interesting. BK doesn't use DSP does it?
Doesn't surprise me since BK used to build their subs. So pretty much any argument for RELs value proposition, including the DSP argument from the head designer doesn't apply to BK.Nope!
It’s interesting, because any half decent system I have heard has had some sort of DSP EQ applied to the LFE channel anyway.These are mainly aimed for hifi systems/light lounge cinema and especially for persons who are design conscious as @kbfern mentioned. This should be quite easy to "sell" for naggy wife, small size, shiny furniture like looks with the handle and all. I bet the price isn`t issue for these folks.
Year or two back when the HT range came i sended message to REL in a little provoke way asking about why they have gone the route they did with the design vs. competitors and why they are bit behind on the extension still as most people will put big emphasis on the FR specs. I knew writing this way could be the only way to get answer, and i did from the lead designer. I think this same talk about the poor extension is talked in many REL reviews, so hopefully this reply helps to open up their thoughts on the design principles. Hats off for the designer writing such detailed reply.
I suppose I shouldn't be too smug because I intend to add DSP processing to my LFE channel lol But that's due to the Amstrad friendly Atmouse mixes of Disney etc rather than the sub.It’s interesting, because any half decent system I have heard has had some sort of DSP EQ applied to the LFE channel anyway.
To be fair I think RELs main argument is that it can handle explosions as well as DSP subs but with advantages on other areas.To say that it handles the explosions with the same capability as the SVS is false, isn't it?
I heard the grand reference series at a dealer open day last September. It didn't sound any more "alive" than the DSP subs I've heard.
I’m just not sure he answered your question about why they don’t extend lower, especiallyI suppose I shouldn't be too smug because I intend to add DSP processing to my LFE channel lol But that's due to the Amstrad friendly Atmouse mixes rather than the sub.