REL S/510 Subwoofer Review & Comments

[SonOfSJ]

@theJman Thank your for your post #99 explaining the Linkwitz Transform!

 

[theJman]

You are quite welcome.

 

[Conrad.]

Do Rel still tell customers with AV amplifiers to set speakers to large, and send high level and low level audio to their subs?

They do. And they will happily sell you a £340/£450 cable do so.

REL Bassline Blue Subwoofer Interconnect - Naim

REL Bassline Blue Subwoofer Interconnect - Naim

petertyson.co.uk

 

[rccarguy]

Still stuck in the past in hifi era and pro logic. Hmm.

 

[jleholeho]

It doesn’t matter the listening area vs the total area, the bass will fill the whole area reguardless, so you need to buy a sub big enough to competently fill the whole area. Suppose it depends on how loud and low you want to go, but that’s a big space and a sub this size wouldn’t touch it for me for movies.

Alright, I see...so give me just a little hint on what is the minimum I’m gonna need to look at, if there has to be just one sub. Size, enclosure, potentially brand and type. Of course I want to go loud and low. Many thanks

 

[Liammonty123]

Alright, I see...so give me just a little hint on what is the minimum I’m gonna need to look at, if there has to be just one sub. Size, enclosure, potentially brand and type. Many thanks

Again it all depends on your expectations and how loud & low you want to play. If you want low and loud expect big and or expensive. What are you currently using?

 

[rccarguy]

What exactly is definition of loud and low? 1hz at 300db? 80hz at 75db? Music or movies because a loud sub for music is easy as demands are much less (and depends on system crossover also) plus music sub is usually low in volume much lower for movies so demands are even less when I set music sub barely tell it's on, but for movies I have it 3db hot.


Also someone who is used to eight subs each with 4 x18"drivers will find a pretty good single 15" sub lacking but for 99% of others that will be be sufficient.

Ie I have 13.5" sealed box in 2500 sq foot room and it copes fine. It's more than good enough for music, even a single 12" sealed is plenty Would I like more for movies, or duals? Sure but cost is way out there (ie I'd need dual PSA 15" or 18" to upgrade at high price) Would someone find my sub sufficient in similar sized room? Depends on their expectations. for me it's not distorting and it's good enough. Then issues that of sealed versus ported which I've gone down, size of good ported is very dominating unless get svs cylinder which I've had, then room eq and placement you may have issues with placement with two big ported subs even if you want two big ported subs. For me two sealed box subs will sit under TV either side of TV.

Then room eq, is your amp capable of equing two subs or just the one? If just the one then how does result when subs are in two different locations?

For me adding a second svs sbu13 is probably limit of what I can manage unless win the lottery.

 

[Liammonty123]

What exactly is definition of loud and low? 1hz at 300db? 80hz at 75db? Music or movies because a loud sub for music is easy as demands are much less (and depends on system crossover also) plus music sub is usually low in volume much lower for movies so demands are even less when I set music sub barely tell it's on, but for movies I have it 3db hot.


Also someone who is used to eight subs each with 4 x18"drivers will find a pretty good single 15" sub lacking but for 99% of others that will be be sufficient.

Ie I have 13.5" sealed box in 2500 sq foot room and it copes fine. It's more than good enough for music, even a single 12" sealed is plenty Would I like more for movies, or duals? Sure but cost is way out there (ie I'd need dual PSA 15" or 18" to upgrade at high price) Would someone find my sub sufficient in similar sized room? Depends on their expectations. for me it's not distorting and it's good enough. Then issues that of sealed versus ported which I've gone down, size of good ported is very dominating unless get svs cylinder which I've had, then room eq and placement you may have issues with placement with two big ported subs even if you want two big ported subs. For me two sealed box subs will sit under TV either side of TV.

Then room eq, is your amp capable of equing two subs or just the one? If just the one then how does result when subs are in two different locations?

For me adding a second svs sbu13 is probably limit of what I can manage unless win the lottery.

There is no definition that is the point of my question. For me, I like to be able to hit Dolby atmos spec of 125db flat from the LFE channel. For most this would be way too much.

I use dual 21s in a 900cuft room. Most would call this way overkill, but I like having the headroom, and being able to really crank it with some films, the system is basically limitless.

I listen to a lot of heavy bass music. Think techno, rap, edm etc, so bass volume and quality is also important to me.

For me a single sealed 13.5 wouldn’t be enough for me in my 900cuft room, never mind 2500cuft, but for others it would be overkill. It all really comes down to expectations and desires.

 

[rccarguy]

I can understand wanting headroom but going ott means playing over the odds for something you'll never need. Ie if sub is running 12db hot, you put on ear defenders and really drank it up to +12db on your amp, and subs still loads of headroom (say two PSA s7201 in benders apartment) then pointless..like a granny buying thrust SSR for shopping car.
Yeah dual 21" in a tiny 900cu foot room a bit daft.

 

[Liammonty123]

I can understand wanting headroom but going ott means playing over the odds for something you'll never need. Ie if sub is running 12db hot, you put on ear defenders and really drank it up to +12db on your amp, and subs still loads of headroom (say two PSA s7201 in benders apartment) then pointless..like a granny buying thrust SSR for shopping car.
Yeah dual 21" in a tiny 900cu foot room a bit daft.

I’m not paying over the odds though, the whole setup cost a few hundred less than the REL in question here. Fair enough I’ll never play loud enough to reach the subs limits, but more headroom usually means less distortion and less driver stress. I’d much much much rather pay a bit more for a system running at 50% than a system running at 90%. It takes a lot of bass to cause hearing damage, certainly not 125db worth. I would estimate in room I am good to 128db ish across the LFE channel, 3db over the Dolby spec.

 

[theJman]

Fair enough I’ll never play loud enough to reach the subs limits, but more headroom usually means less distortion and less driver stress. I’d much much much rather pay a bit more for a system running at 50% than a system running at 90%.

Here in the US there are a ton of "bassheads" on the forums and they have systems that make even yours seem undersized, no small feat given you have an impressive system. During one GTG (get together) I went to someones house who had 8 18" DIY subs powered by 10,000 watts in a 12' x 14' room (3.6m x 4.2m). They were in 2 cabinets of 4 each that literally stretched from one wall to the other. When he unleashed that thing during some demo scenes I had to leave the room because the pressure was causing me issues. Standing in the hallway outside the room I could see the closet doors pulsating back and forth like something from a horror movie.

While that much capacity is not for me there's certainly nothing wrong with having excess, it's a personal choice really. If it always had to make sense to everyone Bugatti wouldn't exist. Does anybody really need a car that can do 450kph? Of course not, but I'll bet it sure is fun to try once in a while.

 

[jleholeho]

Again it all depends on your expectations and how loud & low you want to play. If you want low and loud expect big and or expensive. What are you currently using?

The thing is, this would be my first bigger upgrade as regards subwoofer, I´ve been using Acoustic Energy Neo V2 5.1 system for some time now (in a room of cca 22 sqm). Though the system was praised for its performance/price ratio (reviewed by Russell Williams here at AVF back in the day), I´m aware that 8.5" 200W AE Neo V2 sub won´t be a competition to anything talked about in this thread.
Long story short, I´ve chosen Wharfedale EVO4 speakers for the new main living room in the house

EVO4 Series speakers From Wharfedale - The Audiophile Man

The EVO4 Series sits between the existing Diamond 11 Series and Wharfedale’s forthcoming, flagship Elysian speakers. The initial range comprises six models: two standmount speakers (4.1 and 4.2), two floorstanders (4.3 and 4.4), a large home cinema centre speaker (4.C) and a surround speaker...

theaudiophileman.com

and would like to match it with a quality sub, eager to shift some air in that big room. Pricewise, 2200-2300 euros on the top.

 

[neo_2009]

I can understand wanting headroom ...

People don't realize how much better these high-end drivers are when compared with traditional boutique hi-fi subwoofer drivers.

A B&C 21" driver is a top of the line driver, with proper inductance and heat control, very high normalized motor force, very low distortion, etc.

The small drivers as "fast", "accurate", "musical" is just a myth that was disproved many times.

Most of these small subs have very high levels of distortion, how can a sub be musical and audiophile when it distorts so much, even at moderate levels? (Not to mention jumping around the floor ... can't wrap my head around this one )

If someone buys these boutique subs due to its beautiful finish, attention to cosmetic detail, pride of ownership, all are excellent reasons to purchase then.

Just don't fool yourself with pseudo-science gibberish to justify a product that its cost is not remotely inline with its performance.

 

[Gasp3621]

The thing is, this would be my first bigger upgrade as regards subwoofer, I´ve been using Acoustic Energy Neo V2 5.1 system for some time now (in a room of cca 22 sqm). Though the system was praised for its performance/price ratio (reviewed by Russell Williams here at AVF back in the day), I´m aware that 8.5" 200W AE Neo V2 sub won´t be a competition to anything talked about in this thread.
Long story short, I´ve chosen Wharfedale EVO4 speakers for the new main living room in the house

EVO4 Series speakers From Wharfedale - The Audiophile Man

The EVO4 Series sits between the existing Diamond 11 Series and Wharfedale’s forthcoming, flagship Elysian speakers. The initial range comprises six models: two standmount speakers (4.1 and 4.2), two floorstanders (4.3 and 4.4), a large home cinema centre speaker (4.C) and a surround speaker...

theaudiophileman.com

and would like to match it with a quality sub, eager to shift some air in that big room. Pricewise, 2200-2300 euros on the top.

If you could stretch it little the new Arendal 1723 2V (vented, dual 13,8" drivers, 1,2kw amp) goes for 2500€. Pre-order on August! This model has some serious output down low (97db at 12,5hz -
meausured outside from 2meters). There is Arendal owner thread if you haven´t heard these quality products yet.

1723 Series - Subwoofers - arendalsound.com

1723 Series - Subwoofers

arendalsound.eu

There is also the older 1723 Sub 3 going for 1700€ till stock lasts. It won´t dig as deep with similar output as 2V, but otherwise should be great product!

1723 Series - Legacy Subwoofers - arendalsound.com

1723 Series - Legacy Subwoofers

arendalsound.eu

From SVS PB4000 is likely closest your budget, but the new 2V looks better!

If you have space and wife let´s you pick freely, XTZ 3x12 would be quite mental!

XTZ SUB 3X12 active subwoofer - XTZ Sound in Balance

Cinema 3X12 subwoofer. Absolute home theater specialist. Bass like an earthquake with perfect precision. The 3 x 900W amplifiers always have full control of the 3 high-end drivers.

www.xtzsound.eu

 

[theJman]

Arendal is not available on this side of the pond, so I haven't had the opportunity to hear any of their equipment, but I did review the XTZ 3x12 a few years back. That thing is a beast, in every sense of the word (output and size). It's a statement piece.

 

[Gasp3621]

Arendal is not available on this side of the pond, so I haven't had the opportunity to hear any of their equipment, but I did review the XTZ 3x12 a few years back. That thing is a beast, in every sense of the word (output and size). It's a statement piece.

Arendal should be available to order. The Spare Change dude who lives in US (youtube) swapped he´s MK speakers for Arendals and also have tested the new subs. There is also member in Arendal thread @Quorra from US who is ordering them as we speak...

 

[JacobatREL]

Thanks @Steve Withers for the review.

Is it possible to (simultaneously) connect the high level and the low level signals and use them for movie purpose ?
One could use the front stage as "Large" in receiver setup, which can benefit from the high level input to make the subs an extension of the speakers, but also still throwing the LFE channel.
I read in few places that REL do offer this possibility.

Thanks in Advance.

You can connect both the High Level input and the .1/LFE input on the S/510 simultaneously, which is our preferred connection method for home theater applications. This allows the subwoofer to provide low-frequency extension for your front left and right channels (or whichever channels the high level input is connected to), while also delivering the LFE sub-bass effect channel found in surround sound material.

 

[Conrad.]

Which is exactly what setting your mains speakers to small in an AVR would do, right?

 

[hestepare]

You can connect both the High Level input and the .1/LFE input on the S/510 simultaneously, which is our preferred connection method for home theater applications. This allows the subwoofer to provide low-frequency extension for your front left and right channels (or whichever channels the high level input is connected to), while also delivering the LFE sub-bass effect channel found in surround sound material.

Are you with REL? Would you care to comment on why RELs ship with 6 dB potential that has to be realised through a very complicated break-in process? Surely there is a huge risk that only a fraction of your customers get it wrong and are stuck with a sub that only plays half as loudly as it could. Why did you choose this approach?

 

[theJman]

Arendal should be available to order. The Spare Change dude who lives in US (youtube) swapped he´s MK speakers for Arendals and also have tested the new subs. There is also member in Arendal thread @Quorra from US who is ordering them as we speak...

Thanks for the info! My interest is mostly as it relates to units for review, but being an audiophile does mean that personally I like to hear as much equipment as I can. I see many positive comments about the brand on this forum so my curiosity has been piqued. Maybe I'll ping the company and see what their interest is.

 

[rccarguy]

You can connect both the High Level input and the .1/LFE input on the S/510 simultaneously, which is our preferred connection method for home theater applications. This allows the subwoofer to provide low-frequency extension for your front left and right channels (or whichever channels the high level input is connected to), while also delivering the LFE sub-bass effect channel found in surround sound material.

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No need to do that. Use bass management in the avr, set to small, and send lfe.

Don't set speakers to large. Don't use high level to sub.

Seems.rel is stuck in the 90's era of bass management..

 

[Sky watsher]

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No need to do that. Use bass management in the avr, set to small, and send lfe.

Don't set speakers to large. Don't use high level to sub.

Seems.rel is stuck in the 90's era of bass management..

I asked the question in the first place.
There is a usage case for connecting both high and low inputs :
- Hybrid system : HT & Stereo driven by the same Amplifier / AVR
- Small bookshelves where crossover is set to 80/90, but you want more bass (depends on your room), you might want to set them as large, and use the Sub as an extension, beware of the dips and the nulls when measuring the frequency response.
- Finally, what you said is already achievable, connect FLE and use your AVR to manage the bass.

 

[jleholeho]

If you could stretch it little the new Arendal 1723 2V (vented, dual 13,8" drivers, 1,2kw amp) goes for 2500€. Pre-order on August! This model has some serious output down low (97db at 12,5hz -
meausured outside from 2meters). There is Arendal owner thread if you haven´t heard these quality products yet.

1723 Series - Subwoofers - arendalsound.com

1723 Series - Subwoofers

arendalsound.eu

There is also the older 1723 Sub 3 going for 1700€ till stock lasts. It won´t dig as deep with similar output as 2V, but otherwise should be great product!

1723 Series - Legacy Subwoofers - arendalsound.com

1723 Series - Legacy Subwoofers

arendalsound.eu

From SVS PB4000 is likely closest your budget, but the new 2V looks better!

If you have space and wife let´s you pick freely, XTZ 3x12 would be quite mental!

XTZ SUB 3X12 active subwoofer - XTZ Sound in Balance

Cinema 3X12 subwoofer. Absolute home theater specialist. Bass like an earthquake with perfect precision. The 3 x 900W amplifiers always have full control of the 3 high-end drivers.

www.xtzsound.eu

Thanks for the input, I’ll definitely check every sub you mentioned. I’m aware of Arendal, checked them already, most likely quality subs with a reasonable price. A little hassle with aesthetics maybe, not quite a fan of what I saw design-wise. That’s why I mentioned the JL audio E112 in my initial post, as I find the one satisfying my visual needs, would you then rule that one out completely?

Edit: checked the 1723 1V again in more close-up, doesn’t look that bad, especially in white... I’m contemplating about Wharfedales in white, so it could be a match.

 

[hestepare]

Edit: checked the 1723 1V again in more close-up, doesn’t look that bad, especially in white... I’m contemplating about Wharfedales in white, so it could be a match.

why not do the whole nine yards?

https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/img_20170415_182333-jpg.436236/

 

[Quorra]

Arendal should be available to order. The Spare Change dude who lives in US (youtube) swapped he´s MK speakers for Arendals and also have tested the new subs. There is also member in Arendal thread @Quorra from US who is ordering them as we speak...

Yup you can get Arendal shipped to the USA. Just email Arendal and they will set it up since the new site isnt up yet. Just know you will have to pay a customs fee .. like 10%.