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REL Quake Hi / Lo-Level Connections

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by Mark123, Mar 23, 2004.

  1. Mark123

    Mark123
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    I currently have my REL Quake connected with only the low level connection.

    Is it worth purchasing the Neutrik cable to connect at high level as well?

    Would this be of any benefit?
     
  2. Ian J

    Ian J
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    If you watch mainly films it probably isn't worth bothering with the Neutrik connector.
     
  3. Mark123

    Mark123
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    Yip, it is primarly used for movies. So not worthwhile then?
     
  4. Nimby

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    The high level connections are for music lovers who value nothing messing with their stereo sound quality. It leaves the main stereo speakers unfiltered and adds the sub output below the natural roll-off of the main speakers.

    The low level connections are for film use where the receiver can do its magic in filtering and then pushing the required energy and information to the sub and suround speakers.

    The REL offers the best of both worlds so you don't have to mess about changing cables when changing from stereo music to 5.1 AV use and back again.

    Nimby
     
  5. Boozyuzi

    Boozyuzi
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    Soooooo....

    Does that mean that I could connect my sub to an AV amp using the low level connections

    AND

    connect it to my hi-fi amp using the high level connection.

    At the same time ?

    Sub is a BK 200 XLS 200 whish has high and low level connections - same as the Quake.
     
  6. parrydave

    parrydave
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    yep. Should be able to use sub with both amps.

    I have a REL Q150 and have the LFE out from my AV amp connected at low level, and the high level connected to the speaker terminals of my arcam A85.

    The frequency roll off control on the Rel only alters the high level input whilst the LFE is controlled my surround amp. There are separate volume controls on the REL for both high and low level signals.

    The only slight downside is that because I use my arcam as a power amp for front LR channels in 5.1, the REL gets both high and low level signals at once in 5.1 playback.

    To avoid this, I can either set my surround amp to "Small" front speakers with a suitable cut-off Freq. OR make use of the 2nd speaker o/ps on the arcam to give high level feed to REL. Then I can simply turn off the high level feed using the arcam remote during 5.1 playback.
     
  7. PaulBoy

    PaulBoy
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    Mark123 ... I asked REL the same question & here's their reply ...

    I was sceptical that my Denon3801 / Kef "Egg" setup would benefit but I was keen to get the best sound possible & do listen to a lot of music on DVD / DVD-A / SACD / CD

    HTH ... Paul ;)
     
  8. Ian J

    Ian J
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    I must admit that I don't understand REL's answer. If you are using KEF Eggs they are only satellite speakers so they will be programmed as small in the amp's bass management and all bass under 80Hz or 100Hz (or whatever) plus the LFE will be piped to the sub anyway, so there won't be any underpinning.

    Some amps when used in direct mode do not direct any signal to a sub so the high level connection will be useful for that purpose.
     
  9. munkay

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    I have a BK XLS as well and have been wondering about this recently as well:

    I use Low level only at the moment and havent been bothering using the sub with music (SR4200 and PM7200)

    I assumed if I connected the High level to the pm7200 f+r speakers then altering the lfe level on the sub from LFE (ie - clicked round to let av amp handle crossover) to some where like 60hz or so would also set this level for films etc when both amps are being used. (Where sub is connected via low level to sr4200 pre out and high level from sub to PM7200 front speaker terminals)

    Hope that makes sense?? :)

    So does anyone know what this would result in? ie. would the sr4200 low level still be used AS WELL as the hi level on pm7200 for fronts in films?

    Got me very confused this one :)

    I think perrydave's post has the answer somewhere as set up sounds similar but I don't quite see what he is getting at.
     
  10. PaulBoy

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    Ian J - glad it wasn't just me!
    FWIW I am going to get a Neutrix cable & will report back
    Paul ;)
     
  11. parrydave

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    sorry for confusing y'all. I'll try again....


    I have two amps. Sony 5.1 and an Arcam A85 for stereo. They both use my KefQ35.2s. In my setup, the Left/Right pre-outs from the sony are wired to the Arcam, so the Kefs are driven by the arcam in both 5.1 and stereo.

    Now, both amps also use the REL sub. I have a high-level neutrik link from the arcam speaker outs to the REL, plus the LFE pre-out from the sony amp.

    In stereo (arcam amp only), I have set the frequency roll off on the back of the REL quite low cos the bass extension from the Q35.2s is quite good. They just need a little extra "thud". On the REL Q150 depending which "mode" you have selected, you can switch the REL's roll-off circuitry in or out of the low-level input route. So the freq. knob on REL only affects the high-level input for my setup. I assume the Quake sub is similar, look at manual.


    In 5.1 (sony amp with arcam driving fronts) the LFE feed is controlled by the sony amp, not the REL. The low-level volume knob on REL still sets overall level, but sony amp sets freq. cut offs etc.

    The problem I had was that because in 5.1 both my amps are used, the sub gets both low and high level signals. If you are not careful the front L/R bass content doubles up. If you don't route your 5.1 front signals through your stereo amp, this won't be a problem for you. If you do, I came up with 2 solutions:

    1) set the fronts as "SMALL" on the sony 5.1 amp, so the L/R pre-outs only send >60Hz, to the arcam. Then the high level from Arcam to the REL is basically removed in 5.1 playback and all bass is handled via the LFE o/p to the REL.

    2) The Arcam has two sets of speaker terminals (A/B). Connect the neutrik high level cable to B terminals and KefQ35.2s to A. Both terminals deliver exactly the same so makes no difference to the signal sent to the sub. EXCEPT, when I need to (e.g in 5.1) I can turn speaker B o/p off. Then the REL no longer gets high level feed from Arcam and all front L/R bass is handled by Kef's.

    Option 2 works best for me. seems pointless having floorstanders at front, but diverting their bass to a sub when playing movies.

    hope that makes sense. It is complicated!
     
  12. Mark123

    Mark123
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    PaulBoy,

    I have aslo emailed REL and got the same reply as yourself, saying it would underpin the main speakers.

    My setup is slightly different to yours in that I have B&W 603's for my main speakers.

    Let me know how you get on......

    By the way, where are you getting the cable? your local REL dealer?

    Mark
     
  13. PaulBoy

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    Mark - I understand any REL dealer will be able to order you a cable £20 for 5m - when I asked for 2m one they said it would be £20! presumably a 6" one would be £20 too!
    IanJ suggested to me on an earlier thread about asking in the Classifieds for anyone who had a spare one as a lot of REL users don't use the Neutrix cable supplied with all their subs (except the Quake!)
    I asked & found someone to buy one from for £11 which I am in the process of sorting out
    I tried to embarass REL into giving me a free lead but they weren't interested ...
    HTH ... Paul ;)
     
  14. munkay

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    Perrydave - Thanks very much for that!

    I understand you completely now - Option 2 sounds good for me as well

    Only one concern with this now:

    Sub has following: Hi-gain level / Low-gain level / Phase / LFE

    As I currently have the LFE knob the on Sub clicked to LFE(?), so av amp controls crossover, how should I now set things to accomodate the Option 2 connection?

    I would ideally like to leave it this way as it sounds good for film but I guess for music from stereo amp i will need to set it at a specific frequency to accomodate for the high level as AV amp obviosuly won't be on and controlling it.

    If I want to set my system up as described (option 2) does it mean I will have to have a set crossover on the sub from now on? ie. around 50-60?

    Any suggestions?
     
  15. IronGiant

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    If you want to "borrow" mine (that came with my BK panel), just let me know and I'll post it on to you.

    I think Paul got in there first...

    Dave
     
  16. PaulBoy

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    Dave ... thanks for the kind offer - I have bought one now from the classified ads (thought it was worth it for a tenner!) maybe some other interested party will take you up on your offer ?
    Paul ;)
    PS I havent got the cable yet but will post here when I do & have hooked it up ...
     
  17. adamsdad

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    MJ Acoustics have some notes about using both high & low level cables on their website. Not sure I understand the bit about connecting to the centre speaker though.
    'Can I connect both the high & low level inputs simultaneously?
    Yes you can connect both the high & low level inputs simultaneously. This question is asked by many music lovers who have the high level cable connection for music and want the added benefit from their sub with movies through the low level connection and movie buffs who respectively wish to use their sub for music. With respect to movies, connecting both the high & low level inputs simultaneously, starts to benefit when there is little or no LFE signal being sent to the sub from a dedicated sub out on an AV amp. Having the high level cable connected from the main or centre (recommended) speaker outs on an amp or wired off the back of the speakers, adds a full range signal into the high level input of your sub. Cleverly blended together using the independent volume controls, both the high and low level signals can give you the ultimate in depth reproduction throughout the entire movie, as well as exploding, thumping LFE (low frequency effects) bundled into one subwoofer for the ultimate listening pleasure.'
     
  18. IronGiant

    IronGiant
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    Maybe I need to go back and play some more...

    Apologies if I hang onto my neutrix connector for a bit now

    Dave
     
  19. PaulBoy

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    Further to my post above - I got the cable via the Classifieds here but when I went to hook it up the connector was different so the lead is going back to the seller :(
    I am really pleased with the sound I am getting with music & movies & thought I could live without knowing if the Neutrix connection would make the sound even better but I am weak have decided to get in touch with a REL dealer locally & order a new cable - hopefully in a week or so I will be able to report back
    Paul ;)
     
  20. hemp3

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    Coming back to your original point I woul advise you to use both high level and low level especillay for movies as often the sound engineers dont add all the base to the .1 of a soundtrack. This way you get the base form all 6 channels.
     
  21. Ian J

    Ian J
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    If the speakers have been set as small in the amp's bass management menu all of this bass would be diverted to the subwoofer anyway.
     
  22. hemp3

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    If you use source direct as I do for DD then it helps to have both conencted and even if you dont im sure that the all the bass isnt diverted to the sub even if all speakers are set to small
     
  23. Ian J

    Ian J
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    Why would anyone want to do that :confused:
     
  24. kipper15

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    Well. I think you're right - it IS complicated! And I'm glad I'm not the only one who's confused by all this stuff! I have a similar setup to you - an Arcam A75 driving my B&W 602S3 front L/R speakers in stereo, with a Pioneer VSXD812K AV receiver driving the rear (600S3) and centre (LCR60S3) for movies.

    The two amps are connected via the Arcam's AV/DVD input and the Pioneer's L/R Pre-outs. The gain is then fixed on the Arcam for 5.1 sound or movies via the 'AV Processor' switch (same as your setup, with the fronts being driven by the Arcam). My sub is an MJ Acoustics Ref 100, connected via a low-level output cable to the Pioneer and a high-level output cable to the speaker terminals on the Arcam stereo amp.

    Now, I haven't had this system up and running very long - literally a matter of days - but I have been sooooo confused about this whole hi/lo level thing on the sub. When I emailed MJ Acoustics a while back they re-iterated what was on their site but when I asked about using the SP2 input on the Arcam (like your setup), they didn't recommend doing it that way. I can't recall the reason - I'll try and dig out the email and post it here.

    Driving the fronts (B&W 602's) from the Arcam, in normal stereo, with the hi-level input on the sub set to around 60Hz (602's go to about 50Hz) and gain around 10-11 o clock is absolutley fine. Get nice sub-bass. I use the Arcam for playing stereo CDs and vinyl.

    When using 5.1 it's a different story. I've found that if I set the crossover on the sub to the 'infinity' (e.g. LFE) setting, I get the sub-bass from 5.1 sources OK (e.g. Pioneer DV656K DVD player, Xbox). However, mixing in even a relatively small amount of gain on the hi-level control results in a mushy mid-range sound! I guess the secret is to not blend too much of this with the LFE or turn it off altogether when using 5.1??? Boy am I confused! I've fired an email over to MJA to see what they say.

    As adamsdad has pointed out, the MJ Acoustics site suggests 'mixing' high and low level inputs if possible when watching movies. But I don't like the sound! Unless of course there's something I'm missing...

    When I emailed MJ Acoustics a while back and asked about this they re-iterated what was on their site but when I asked about using the SP2 input on the Arcam (like your setup), they didn't recommend doing it that way. I can't recall the exact reason (something to do with the sub must be wired in parallel to the speakers) - I'll try and dig out the email and post it here.

    I can see why you went for the SP2 option on the Arcam for the high-level cables and I don't mind switching between 60Hz and LFE when switching between stereo and 5.1 sources, but to have a fiddle about with the high-level gain control every time I change between stereo and 5.1 sources is going to be a pain in the a*se!

    I've set ALL the speakers on my Pioneer AV receiver to "small" and the sub crossover settings are selectable at 100Hz, 150Hz and 200Hz. The manual for the Pioneer recommends the 200Hz setting if all speakers are set to "small", which I have done.

    Methinks this is going be a long thread!

    Cheers,

    Kipper
     
  25. parrydave

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    Agreed. It is complicated!

    I'm not familiar with your sub, but on the REL I can set separate gains for hi and low level inputs. And there is a setting which switches the crossover control out of the low level input. So in my set up, the crossoer control on the sub only affects the hi-level input. The LFE is controlled entirely by the AV amp.



    So I don't have to fiddle around the back of the sub when I switch. Can just turn the hi-level from SP2 on/off from the arcam remote!


    I guess the problem with running the sub from SP2 is to do with impedance matching. Don't know what load the hi-level Sub connection puts on the arcam, but if its large, wiring in parallel with speakers means that the overall lad will be close to that of your speaker (4-8 ohm ish).


    Doesn't seem to cause a problem with my amp though.
     
  26. hemp3

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    "Why would anyone want to do that? "

    Source direct bypasses all the tone conrol within the amp and if you also switch off the video processing you get the cleanest sound. I prfer the sound in source direct it sounds all lot more detailed and you dont have to turn it up as loud.
     
  27. kipper15

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    Same on the MJ sub.

    Again, same as on the MJ. I can switch out the crossover control to an infinity setting (which comes up as 'LFE' on the display), which means the crossover is handled by the AV amp.


    Note sure if I can switch SP2 off remotely on the A75...I have the sub connnected to SP1 anyway.

    Hmmm...I stuck with the advice which I got from MJ. At least it looks like I may have found the answers I was after here on this forum (although I'd like to see what MJ Acoustics come back with!). The only thing I need to test out more is multi-channel SACD, which when I played around with one the other night, seemed to be doing some odd things...I'll look into and post my findings.

    Kipper
     
  28. Stereo Steve

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    I have the low level only, everything set to small and the crossover at source end at 80 and on the sub at 70. I have found this the best compromise. Once I got the levels right I was absolutley delighted with the sound. If I run the sub into the speakers territory then it goes all mushy so I don't see the need for high level in my setup. I must admit though my SACD player and Rotel processor do give me some really good variable xover/ level options for different types of processing. For example I can set up a sub level boost for DD/DTS/Stereo/Multi it etc. It's a useful thing to have as I can set my sub up nice and subtle for music and give it 5db boost for DD/DTS signals.
     

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