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rel q200e with b+w dm602s - help plse

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by Suki, Jan 2, 2002.

  1. Suki

    Suki
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    I am still not sure I have this set up optimally and would welcome comments.I should also say I have a b+w cc6 centre and canon surrounds.
    The amp is set to large for the front 3 and small for the surrounds and a cable splits into 2 from out of the .1 amp output and into both the l and r input of the lolevel on the sub.
    The subs settings are mode2/roll off around 40/hi level about a third of the way up and lo level about a 3rd of the way up as well

    The issues I have-
    1) If I try and connect the hi level via the speakron as per the book it sounds awful - too bassy and the sub rumbles away with no signal going in - so I dont

    2) If i select source direct from my amp the bass is too heavy with music and i have to set the sub to off

    3) on movies the sub hardly works at all with sky in dpl - is this correct ?

    So am i set up correctly or has anyone suggestions- i tried the sub set up menus from thx dvds but they baffle me completely.

    Your help appreciated

    Suki
     
  2. Jase

    Jase
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    Hi

    Mode 2 on the Rel will IGNORE the crossover adjustment for low level which means your amp will be setting the crossover.

    Your best bet (easiest!!) will be to set ALL speakers to SMALL, set mode 2 on the sub, adjust the volume to around halfway (on the sub) then you can adjust the sub volume independently via the amp, up & down to your taste.

    You can still connect via the High Level connection (Neutrik) as well, for using DIRECT mode. You´ll need to adjust the HIGH LEVEL crossover to around 10hz higher than the lowest frequency your speakers go down to.

    i.e if they go down to 40hz set the crossover to around 50hz.

    Then adjust the HIGH LEVEL volume to your taste.

    You would then turn OFF the sub in the DIRECT mode so you dont get a doubling up of the bass.

    This way you´ll get the best for Dolby Digital, DTS etc and music.

    Personally, i only use one cable into the right hand line in of the sub.

    Hope this helps.

    cheers
     
  3. torimusic

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    Set front left/right speakers to 'large' and centre and surrounds to 'small'. Set sub to 'off' or 'none'. This will redirect bass and LFE info to front left/right speakers outputs and front left/right line level RCA outs. Connect a stereo pair RCA to RCA cable from front left/right line level pre-outs to left/right line level RCA inputs of sub (assuming your sub and amp have these connections).
    This should theoretically give you a better bass response. You must play with the sub settings.
     
  4. Lowrider

    Lowrider
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    Jase is right, that is the best way (the way it is intended too), to connect your sub...

    Torimusic,

    Man, you like to complicate things... try Jase´s way to see what you have been missing...
     
  5. Suki

    Suki
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    The first part of your reply I understand fully - I tried it last night and after some fiddling around my DVDs never sounded better - thanks a lot mate !

    However - Why would I wish to set up the high level Neutrik connectors as you describe if they cause the bass to double up and I have to then turn off the sub to listen to music.
    (Is this doubling of bass something that only happens in direct mode or does it happen in normal stereo mode with the bass and treble on my amp not defeated ?)

    If I have this correct in my head then, set up as you describe ,
    A) the .1 lo level will only kick in from DTS and Dolby Digital sources
    B) the sub will kick in from the neutrik inputs on dpl and stereo
    c) for some reason I dont understand the sub will double the bass if used in direct mode - presumably because it will get a bass signal from the .1 lo level and the hi level as well.

    Your comments appreciated

    Thanks Suki
     
  6. Lowrider

    Lowrider
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    I will try to answer for Jase...:blush:

    a) The low level will include the .1 plus the signal below the crossover frequency you set on the receiver for all the speakers you set to small. EXCEPT when you use direct mode, there it will include nothing...

    b) The sub will kick in from the neutrik inputs (high) all the frequencies that go to the front speakers bellow the crossover (50 hz?) you set in the sub, whatever mode you choose.

    c) If the front speakers are set to small, only frequencies above the receivers crossover (probably 80 hz) go to them, so you get nothing thru the high connection, everything is as a). BUT in direct mode the receiver bypasses bass management, so it considers front as large (regardeless of your settings small), so it will be only as b)...

    So there is no doubling whatsoever... :confused:
     
  7. Jase

    Jase
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    Hi

    In DIRECT mode most amps will be sending Full Range signals to the front speakers regardless of the original setup configuration hence the option to switch off the sub in DIRECT mode. Switching the sub off stops the doubling up of bass and also gives you a cleaner signal by not passing thru bass management etc it wont affect your original set up configuration (all speakers small etc)

    As your front speakers dont go down to 20hz you´ll be missing out on some bass if you DONT connect via the High Level (neutrik). Connected this way you´ll be getting the cleanest signal and wont miss out on any of the lower bass signals.
    Remember this only applies to DIRECT mode for the purest music in 2ch.

    Setting ALL the speakers to SMALL redirects ALL bass from ALL the channels below a cutoff frequency (set by the amp) to the sub. The sub will also get the .1 LFE channel.

    Hope this is a bit clearer!!

    cheers
     
  8. Jase

    Jase
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    It may seem confusing at first but its really the best way for both movies & music, you just need to tinker around with things a little, volume level on the sub etc.

    Lowrider nipped his answer in whilst i was typing!!:D ;)

    cheers
     
  9. Lowrider

    Lowrider
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    Hi Jase,

    Fast fingers here... :D

    My former receiver, Onkyo 787, would disable the LFE output when in direct mode, so does the TAG, so I think you don´t need to turn the sub off, just choose direct, and on you go, without any doubling...
     
  10. Jase

    Jase
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    Lowrider,

    Depends on the amp/processor.

    My Denon A1SE doesnt switch off the sub output automatically, you have to go into Mode select, Channel Level then turn it off.

    It was the same for my old Denon 3801 as well.

    Mind you, once done, it remembers it until you change the Main Channel levels in the set up menu again.

    cheers
     
  11. Suki

    Suki
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    thanks for all the info - I am not sure I understand it all yet so I have decided to re read your posts and then have a weekend of fiddling with settings using the tips you chaps gave .

    I have also just bought a 3802 so with setting this up , reprogramming my philps pronto and following your tips I have warned the wife not to expect too much conversation this weekend !

    Thanks again for all your help - if there is no post from me early next week then you can assume I finally cracked it

    regards

    suki
     
  12. dAvE6

    dAvE6
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    I'm still not sure what you mean by 'direct mode'. Is this when listening to music/radio?
     
  13. Jase

    Jase
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    dAvE6

    Most amps have a Direct mode which bypasses bass management, tone controls etc to give you as purest/cleanest signal as possible.

    You can switch it on for most sources CD, SAT etc

    It might be called something else on other amps, its DIRECT & PURE DIRECT on my Denon.

    cheers
     
  14. torimusic

    torimusic
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    This mode bypasses your bass and treble frequency filters to give you the source signal unmodified. Many hi-fi purists prefer this mode but I prefer not to use it because I find my system performs better with the bass/treble enabled.
     
  15. Lowrider

    Lowrider
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    There are rules for bass management, but some receivers don´t follow them strictly...

    Anyway, even though your Denon won´t shut down the LFE, I still think you don´t get any signal thru it in direct mode, so you don´t need to switch off the sub...
     
  16. Jase

    Jase
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    I´ll doublecheck later, but i´m pretty sure the Denon still sends a signal via the LFE. Before I connected via High Level as well the sub was only connected via LFE and it was getting a signal in Direct/Pure Direct modes.

    I´ll check later though!!

    At least it gives you the option of turning it off!!

    cheers
     
  17. Jase

    Jase
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    Yes, it still sends a signal via the LFE output to the sub in Direct mode, hence the option to turn it off.

    Maybe this is common only to Denon amps? Presumably, Denon have assumed that not everyone can connect their subs via both High & Low level at the sametime.

    cheers
     
  18. dAvE6

    dAvE6
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    I have a Sony STR-DB1070 amp. There is an AFD mode which is auto format decoding. But this still allows treble and bass to be applied to it. It just reproduces the software the way it was produced.
     
  19. niklasl

    niklasl
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    Hi,

    I've followed this thread with great interest since I have a Denon AVR-3802 and bought a REL Q400E just a few days ago. I'm a novice at these things so I, too, had problems setting it up with both high and low level input.

    Thanks to Jase's reply I knew how to set it up, but I got a dubbling of the bass, even in Direct mode. I could tell the sub was getting bass input from both the high and low level input because if I changed the volume up or down for either the high och low level input the bass volume from the sub changed.

    After fiddling around with the receiver for a while I found that in Direct mode I could turn the LFE-signal off by setting the channel volume for the sub to OFF. I verified this by turning the volume control on the sub for the low level input. The volume didn't change one bit!

    However, there is no option to set the channel volume for the sub to OFF for the other sound modes, like Dolby Pro Logic II, 5 channel, Stereo etc. In these modes I can only set the channel volume for the sub to -12db.

    From this i draw two conclusions (for music only):

    1. For music the only way to avoid dubbling of the bass is to use Direct mode with the channel volume for the sub set to OFF.

    2. For music all other sound modes there will be a dubbling of the bass, thus limiting the use of these modes.

    Can anyone please verify this. I found it very difficult to believe conclusion no 2 because with modern equipment there should be a way around this.

    Regards,
    Niklas
     
  20. Jase

    Jase
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    Niklas

    In DIRECT/PURE DIRECT modes the amp bypasses all bass management i.e your speaker settings small/large etc

    It sends full range signals to the front speakers regardless, hence the option to turn off the sub in these modes to avoid doubling the bass.

    All other modes(5ch, stereo etc) use the bass management applying the 80 hz cutoff frequency so you dont get any doubling.

    Hope this helps.

    cheers
     
  21. Suki

    Suki
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    Ok chaps I spent the weekend tinkering and it all sounds really great - in particular the 3802 is awesome.

    A question for you though niklasl - in your point 1) you refer to turning off the sub for direct mode.

    Do you do this physically by walking over and flicking the switch to turn the sub off ( as I currently do) or is there a menu on the 3802 that allows you to disable the sub for direct mode BUT leave it on for all the other settings such as dpl2 or dd or dts.

    If there is this will be great as I only ever listen to the CDs on the 3802 in direct mode.

    Can you tell me how to do it - what buttons to press etc....

    Thx suki

    :confused:
     
  22. niklasl

    niklasl
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    Suki,

    Set the receiver to Direct Mode.

    1. On the receiver press the button CH VOL untill the display on the receiver shows SW. Turn the dial untill it shows OFF.

    2. On the remote press Enter (the round button in the middle) untill the display on the receiver shows SW. Press either the Volume button or the Stop button (sorry, not at home right now)untill the receiver shows OFF.

    The receiver saves this setting so each time you switch to Direct the sub will be turned off.

    Good luck,
    Niklas
     
  23. Suki

    Suki
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    Thanks mate - easy when you know how!

    Thanks

    suki
     
  24. niklasl

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    :confused:
    Hi again,

    As I've said before I'm very pleased with the performance of my sub in Direct mode, but in all other modes there is way too much bass.

    I know Jase is right about the bass management for 5 channel, stereo etc applies the 80 hz cutoff frequency when the speakers are set to small. But my ears tell me something else, there's way too much bass in 5 ch, DPL II, steroe etc!! Listening to these modes is not enjoyable because of the bass.

    Could it be that the range 80 - 120 (?) hz is transmitted through the LFE and my ears considers this as bass as well? Could this indicate that my receiver for some reason doesn't perform the 80 hz cutoff in a proper way? Are there any other explanations? Listed my gear at the bottom in case it helps to explain the bass.

    Regards,
    Niklas


    Denon AVR-3802
    Denon DVS-2800
    Denon POA-T10
    B&W Nautilus 804
    B&W Nautilus HTM2
    Blue Room Minipod
    REL Q400E
     
  25. Jase

    Jase
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    Hi

    The 80hz cutoff is not "brickwall" as it were, it tailors off.

    The increased bass could be down to your speakers, as I have the opposite in 5ch stereo, I have to increase the bass. My speakers are KEF THX & not ideally suited to multichannel music, especially the dipoles.

    Beyond that, I cant think of any other reason.:confused:

    cheers
     
  26. Jase

    Jase
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    Niklas

    You can always lower the Sub volume via the Channel level adjustment or reduce the Bass in the Tone Control.

    Worth playing around with!!:)
     
  27. niklasl

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    Jase,

    Thanks, I'll try your advice.

    I did think of another solution which is very easy. That is to disconnect the High level input and only use the Low level input. This way I'll definately avoid any doubling of the bass. I don't think my untrained ears will hear any difference between High and Low level input...? Anybody who has any comments on this?

    Regards,
    Niklas
     
  28. Jase

    Jase
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    Niklas

    You shouldnt need to disconnect the High Level connector if your crossover is set properly. In mode 2 or 4 on the Rel´s the crossover is ignored at low level/LFE.

    Going by your speakers, if the crossover is set to around 50hz (?) you shouldnt have a problem.

    If youve already done this then maybe you ARE hearing the bass above 80hz??

    It could also be your room affecting the bass!! Rooms can have a strange affect on bass!!

    cheers
     

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