REL 3D Audio with multiple subs

Rickover

Novice Member
Hello folks. I came across this article from REL's site: Adding 3D to Theater Part 1 | REL Acoustics

In it they say that you should connect a sub to your center channel and a sub to your surrounds using their high level connections. Does anyone have experience with this? Has anyone tried this using a subwoofer of a different brand that has speaker wire terminals?
 

Lensman5d

Active Member
I am building up to this, so very interested in replies. Currently use 2x S5sho but have my eye on 2x s510. As I have atmos too, I probably need a 5th.... 😳
what are your thoughts So,far?
 

Christian1975

Active Member
Hello folks. I came across this article from REL's site: Adding 3D to Theater Part 1 | REL Acoustics

In it they say that you should connect a sub to your center channel and a sub to your surrounds using their high level connections. Does anyone have experience with this? Has anyone tried this using a subwoofer of a different brand that has speaker wire terminals?

I initially built my system around what some REL people call "the ultimate setup" which goes with the theory of all five channels being full range down to sub-bass frequency. So, they are all on high level connections.
Don't get me wrong it sounded great HOWEVER my AV receiver you then set to say no subwoofer. It then sends the LFE channel to the MAINS ONLY and not shared to all channels. That was issue number one. Issue number two was then I could not adjust the LFE level! Some films I watched were disappointing, would have normally turned up the LFE. Then, for example, watched Aquaman and it blew our heads off but couldn't turn the LFE down... As you will see in my other posts, I have gone back to the drawing board on how to connect up six subs.
 

Conrad.

Moderator
It sounds like a very expensive and impractical way to get full range channels. Plus why would the surrounds only need a single sub between them, wouldn't that ruin the surround effect?

If you're running an AVR then just use the line level connection and redirect all bass to your subs below the various crossovers. And then also send the LFE to the subs.

@Christian1975, are all your subs independently located, or are any of them colocated?
Your best bet is likely a minidsp and an UMIK1. If you genuinely need six outputs then a 4x10HD would do you, otherwise a 2x4HD is the commonly preferred device.

If you have at least two pairs of subs that measure the same (in terms of response and phase) then you can run them on a single output with a splitter cable.
 

Christian1975

Active Member
Hi Conrad, I'm still "developing the plan"... eventual layout now will be two low level connected Stratas in front corners, two lo level Storms in rear corners (hence why I'll be selling the Stadium). Then, for music only in DIrect mode, two Quakes "inbetween" the front main speakers on high level connection. Home cinema, I will filter the fronts so that the Quakes do nothing.
So none are colocated.
But hence my question here:
I'm going to set this all up (hope done sometime January) and then will report back at my original post where I asked for advice:
Thanks again for your help.
 

Conrad.

Moderator
I saw that post. You'll be fine connecting two subs to a single AVR out, but you'll lose the ability to trim and time align them. Better to go one out to a minidsp and then all the subs hang off that.

I would use room sim to determine the best location for the subs. Near the mains isn't always the right place, and there's no need to pair a sub on each of the L and R channels. Bass isn't stereo so you can redirect the bass from the mains to the main subs and it should still sound cohesive.

The quakes aren't going to add that much to your Kefs, in all honesty. If you have the cables though, it doesn't hurt to try.

I would hook up the two quakes in the way you describe (high level), tune them to the rolloff of the kefs and see how it sounds. Without a mic it's hard to know what's going on. Calibrating six subs without measurement equipment is hard.

You could run Audyssey sweeps with each of the other four subs connected, one at a time, and compare the responses. If your subs that are in the front corners measure the same then you can EQ them as a single sub. Same for the back ones. If you do that you now have four "virtual" subs that you can use a minidsp to present back to the AVR as a single sub.
 

Christian1975

Active Member
Thank you Conrad. Now I'm going to make myself unpopular (if I haven't already) on this site because...
I can hear the direction of bass. I can locate it by direction until about 30Hz. Then to be honest, I can only hear (from testing) to between 20 and 25Hz. Below that, yes I can feel it but not hear it, I know the subs are still doing it because I've had many other people in the house (before COVID) that could hear it! Younger people ;o)
Anyway, for me, for music, they must be stereo... and the high level music QUakes will be set up with my ears which is how I set up the high level ones I have currently. Of course, I will be unpopular again now sorry... I use a 5Hz frequency test thing. I hear the KEFs falling off at about 50Hz, even though KEF quote them to well below this. When I've used AUdyssey on them, it says well below this too. BUT, that probably means that my ears are sh*t at that level, so I tune the high level subs to give as flat a response as the bass falls off with the KEFs to my ears. Probably means loads of younger people come in the lounge with music on and think there is a horrible peak! But that doesn't matter as I'm setting the music up for me selfishly ;o)
But thanks for the great tips on the low level connected subs, we'll see how it goes and I will report back. Hopefully when it is all sorted, I can start selling some of the stuff below and paying back what I've spent haha!
You've worried me now about the Quakes but I'm hoping they will sound great, bought them and thanks from @AndreNewman on this site, they turn up today!
 

Conrad.

Moderator
Now I'm going to make myself unpopular

Not at all :)

At the end of the day it has to work for you in your room. The approach that I usually recommend works for a wide range of people and situations and is often a very successful approach. In no way does that mean it's the only way or the "right" way. Just read any post about cables or power conditioners - there's no "right way". I'm still experimenting and learning myself. I've always held the opinion that, even with floorstanders, running them with subs for music was the right approach. I'm currently testing that view and it's not as clear cut as I thought. Maybe one day I'll even like high level!

It sounds like you're actually setting up two systems, one for music and one for AV. The hardest thing for you to solve is that you'll be running full range speakers and subs. It will likely mean that you'll have phase cancellations somewhere in the range.

What about running the quakes on high level with the Kefs as full range for stereo, but then for multichannel run the Kefs as small with the two strata and two storm connected using low/line level? You wouldn't even have to touch the quakes then, they won't be getting any signal if the Kefs are set to small.

That way you have a stereo pair for music and four more capable subs for HT. Plus, with them being distributed around the room that should help with the directionality issue and you might be able to put them in the ideal locations to give a better response. Even if you can hear stereo bass, I would guess that that's less of an issue with movie content where the stereo image isn't as strong.
 

Christian1975

Active Member
Not at all :)

At the end of the day it has to work for you in your room. The approach that I usually recommend works for a wide range of people and situations and is often a very successful approach. In no way does that mean it's the only way or the "right" way. Just read any post about cables or power conditioners - there's no "right way". I'm still experimenting and learning myself. I've always held the opinion that, even with floorstanders, running them with subs for music was the right approach. I'm currently testing that view and it's not as clear cut as I thought. Maybe one day I'll even like high level!

It sounds like you're actually setting up two systems, one for music and one for AV. The hardest thing for you to solve is that you'll be running full range speakers and subs. It will likely mean that you'll have phase cancellations somewhere in the range.

What about running the quakes on high level with the Kefs as full range for stereo, but then for multichannel run the Kefs as small with the two strata and two storm connected using low/line level? You wouldn't even have to touch the quakes then, they won't be getting any signal if the Kefs are set to small.

That way you have a stereo pair for music and four more capable subs for HT. Plus, with them being distributed around the room that should help with the directionality issue and you might be able to put them in the ideal locations to give a better response. Even if you can hear stereo bass, I would guess that that's less of an issue with movie content where the stereo image isn't as strong.



Hiya, haha that's what I said about an hour ago is what I'm doing...

" Then, for music only in DIrect mode, two Quakes "inbetween" the front main speakers on high level connection. Home cinema, I will filter the fronts so that the Quakes do nothing. "

Great minds think alike ;o)

My entire new plan is based around the advice lots of people on this forum and at Audyssey and at THX etc all give... for home cinema, I'll set all to small and filter fronts probably at 80Hz, surrounds the same but then a pain as the centre has to filter at 100Hz (as it's pathetic!).

For me, a lot of it is a big compromise between music and home cinema. For me, "direct" on the amp is the only option for music! The Rotel power amp I have is great for that as well, as with two channels driven it's been tested to have power well above the rated (the rated power interestingly roughly equates to all five channels being driven - unlike AV amp manufacturers who lie to us!). It never runs out of power and I love the sound. Just need to get it repaired as it buzzes on three of the channels!

Anyway, thank you again... will report back as things develop ;o)
 

Lensman5d

Active Member
This week has been busy, I have put in a Rel 3D system in my cinema. I already had two S5sho, paired to L&R and that was the best upgrade I have ever done. Next lovical (🤣) step was 3D. So I bought two S510 units and put with the centre and the rear.
much much fiddling I think I am there.
yes, bass is directional despite what people say. Spend some time moving the sub SLIGHTLY and you can tell.
all subs set up one at a time following the Rel guides.
LFE is now in my seat with me, not just in front of the screen. A much more discernible ‘thump’ is felt when big things fall over.
very good indeed 😎
bloody expensive, but good.
 

Attachments

  • 72045D11-9A39-4237-B239-98559AB80F7D.jpeg
    72045D11-9A39-4237-B239-98559AB80F7D.jpeg
    375.1 KB · Views: 25
  • EFD20B43-DB76-4C39-973A-41D0992A506B.jpeg
    EFD20B43-DB76-4C39-973A-41D0992A506B.jpeg
    305.6 KB · Views: 26

Christian1975

Active Member
Wow! Don't get me wrong, when I tried this theory, the cost of my components was nothing like this! One of the best scenes to demonstrate is in Toy Story when that big concrete tube falls of the truck! I had stereo front and rear subs and it rolls right across the room...
I find that Disney films seem to put the most low bass into the normal (not .1) channels... don't know why this is. Problem I had (as I said earlier) is that not enough other films seemed to do this. But hope that you get on well with it.
You're making me doubt my multi-sub setup now, so I'm thinking do I try and do it all high level again... arg... no Christian you must leave things alone ;o)
 

The latest video from AVForums

Podcast: Philips TV Launch Event, Soundbar vs AVR, Samsung EzCAL and more...
Top Bottom