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Region 1 probs.....

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Zog, Jan 2, 2003.

  1. Zog

    Zog
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    Raised this issue before, but let it lie when nobody could help. Put it down to a dodgy disc. No any longer though. Rather than resurrect the old thread I will start again.
    Basically I keep getting a number of moving horizontal bands across the picture. They are intermittent and unpredictable though may coincide (and subsequently move)with parts of the image of particularly high contrast.
    I have a Multi Reg Tosh 220e with, I beleive, the updated firmware from RS. This is connected to my TV via RGB scart. Output is set to Auto, (as oppose to PAL).
    I noticed these with my first R1 disc (Matrix). Like I said nobody on here could help so I put it down to a dodgy disc. Now I also have it on LOTR EV R1, so I aint too keen to just dismiss it any longer.
    Has anybody got any ideas? It must be linked to them being R1, and I suspect the player.
    I'm not being over critical here, as even the other half noticed them and she can barely tell the difference between DVD and VHS !!!!
     
  2. James45

    James45
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    no you're not being too critical, have you tried a different scart? are you sending an RGB signal (selectable thru the DVDs menu) to an RGB compatable scart socket on the TV?
    Could be interference from somewhere as well, but I very much doubt it's caused by playing R1 discs on your player.

    Perhaps this thread should be moved to DVD Players and Recorders.
     
  3. Zog

    Zog
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    It is deffo outputting RGB and to a compatible socket as I get no probs with my forty or so other R2 discs.
    Not tried another lead, but can't understand why a lead might work with R2 and not with R1.
     
  4. Daneel

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    Sounds more like your TV is having problems with NTSC to me. Either that or the DVD player isn't outputing the signal correctly.

    What TV do you have?
     
  5. Zog

    Zog
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    Its a Sony KV-34.... something or other. Its several years old but does have a couple of NTSC compatible scarts. Might be an idea to check that I'm using one and come back later.
     
  6. Erling

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    I have a Sony KV-S2913, the first Super Trinitron model, also several years old. It suffered from something that sounds like your problem when showing the image from NTSC laserdiscs - bright or dark horisontal bands flickering over the screen intermittently. After careful observation I was able to conclude that it depended on the image's left side: if you had something bright there, you got a dark band across the screen and vice versa. This led to the flickering whenever there was motion with changing light intensities in the left side of the screen.

    Here's the bad news: it required a factory fix. In fact, Sony Denmark had to ship a TV of that model to the factory in Germany for them to provide a solution. The model was discontinued at the time, and the factory didn't have any left, but my TV was still under warranty, and the specs said it was multistandard, so they had to come up with a solution. Can't complain about the service I recieved from Sony though. :)

    Why buy a discontinued model you may ask ?
    Because the picture tube in the first Super Trinitrons were much more expensive and much better than the subsequent ones. I had in fact bought a KV-S2923, the second 29" KV-S model, but when Sony couldn't fix a problem with the left/right edges of the screen turning magenta whenever the image was bright, they offered to swap the 2923 with the 2913. The latter not only didn't suffer from the magenta discoloration, but also had a much better image overall. It's not always the latest model that's the best. When I got it home though, I discovered the NTSC problem...

    I don't know exactly what was changed in my TV, but I believe the problem was connected to the PIP circuit, as my tech contact with Sony Denmark had found that disconnecting the PIP module removed the problem (before the factory in Germany came up with a solution).

    Regards,
    Erling Groes-Petersen
     
  7. Erling

    Erling
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    I have a Sony KV-S2913, the first Super Trinitron model, also several years old. It suffered from something that sounds like your problem when showing the image from NTSC laserdiscs - bright or dark horisontal bands flickering over the screen intermittently. After careful observation I was able to conclude that it depended on the image's left side: if you had something bright there, you got a dark band across the screen and vice versa. This led to the flickering whenever there was motion with changing light intensities in the left side of the screen.

    Here's the bad news: it required a factory fix. In fact, Sony Denmark had to ship a TV of that model to the factory in Germany for them to provide a solution. The model was discontinued at the time, and the factory didn't have any left, but my TV was still under warranty, and the specs said it was multistandard, so they had to come up with a solution. Can't complain about the service I recieved from Sony though. :)

    Why buy a discontinued model you may ask ?
    Because the picture tube in the first Super Trinitrons were much more expensive and much better than the subsequent ones. I had in fact bought a KV-S2923, the second 29" KV-S model, but when Sony couldn't fix a problem with the left/right edges of the screen turning magenta whenever the image was bright, they offered to swap the 2923 with the 2913. The latter not only didn't suffer from the magenta discoloration, but also had a much better image overall. It's not always the latest model that's the best. When I got it home though, I discovered the NTSC problem...

    I don't know exactly what was changed in my TV, but I believe the problem was connected to the PIP circuit, as my tech contact with Sony Denmark had found that disconnecting the PIP module removed the problem (before the factory in Germany came up with a solution).

    Regards,
    Erling Groes-Petersen
     
  8. kev_melon

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    I had this same problem when I first got my 16:9 Thomson TV. I think it's got something to do with the NTSC version of Macrovision encoded onto R1 discs.

    Macrovision on R1 discs has got an added layer of protection called Colourstripe. It makes changes in the colour 'burst' part of the signal. This makes coloured bands or stripes appear across the picture.

    If your DVD player has anything like PAL 60 then disable it because the mix of PAL 60 and Colourstripe is not a good one.

    It's a pity because when I play my R1 Spider-Man disc in PAL 60 the edges look sharper and better defined with more detail in darker areas.

    Has anyone else experienced this?

    Hope this helps.
     
  9. Zog

    Zog
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    It took a while but I knew you lot wouldn't let me down!
    Erling I am tempted to think the problem is the same as you are suggesting. Maybe I should speak to Sony UK. The only problem is shifting that mother of a TV to a repair shop is a nightmare. It took three of us to get it into the house first time round.
    Perhaps I should just stick to R2 until I upgrade the set.

    kev_melon, you mention disabling PAL60. What is this ? I have a tosh 220e and I am not sure its on it.
     
  10. Erling

    Erling
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    Zog, I believe you when you say it's a nightmare to move that TV. The 60kg that my 29" weigh is more than enough, and if I remember correctly, the 34" version weighs over 80kg...

    If you do talk to Sony UK, you could mention that Sony Germany has solved what was probably the same problem at least once before. I don't know if they keep any central/international records about such fixes, but it could never hurt to mention it.
    Do mention the connection with the PIP module too, it might make it easier to find any record about the error - the description of the effect on the image likely varies depending on the person making it.

    I believe the PAL60 kev_melon is referring to is the 'pseudo-PAL' that most DVD players can convert NTSC to. It's not true PAL, but it does work for some TVs that can't show pure NTSC.

    In fact, if you have your DVD player set up to output pure NTSC, you could try setting it to PAL60/'pseudo-PAL' instead - it might actually solve your problem !!
    I didn't have this option myself when my TV had the problem, as my laserdisc player was a NTSC-only model, and thus could only output pure NTSC.

    Hope you find a solution.

    Regards,
    Erling Groes-Petersen
     
  11. Zog

    Zog
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    Re. the output of the DVD. I don't get much choice. Its either PAL or AUTO. Quite what Auto is it doesn't say.
     
  12. Erling

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    Try setting it to PAL and see what happens with a region 1 DVD - maybe it will convert it to pseudo-PAL/PAL60.

    Sorry about the double post earlier - dunno what went wrong.
     
  13. brifobwad

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    The Auto/Pal option is available on my Sharp VHS. The manual states that switching to Pal may improve picture quality " If the VCR is playing poor quality recording " but doesn't explain why:rolleyes:
     
  14. nwgarratt

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    I have had white horizontal lines appearing on my Sony TV (both old 4:3 TV and more recent widescreen TV) when playing NTSC laserdiscs. It only happened with NTSC and not PAL. Also, when outputtng NTSC in RGB they didn't appear. It also doesn't do it on all NTSC discs just contact, empire strikes back and starship troopers.

    I have never got a proper explanation why they appeared. Is that the same what you got? I put it down to the disc themselves.
     
  15. Erling

    Erling
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    I'm not sure my problem was the same as that you describe. In my case, the problem was also present when using a RGB signal as input, and it wasn't exactly white lines - the screen simply got darker or lighter in horisontal bands across the screen, depending on what was present at the left edge of the image.
    I got the problem in specific scenes on all my laserdiscs, which had never exibited those problems on other TVs.
    I can give you an example that illustrates it: When 'demo-ing' fhe problem for a Sony tech, I used one of the first space scenes in '2001'. In it you have a bright white spaceship slowly moving from right to left across a black background. At first the black background is ok, somewhat grey and washed out, but uniform, with no stripes. The instant the white spaceship hit the left edge of the screen, I would get a dark band across the screen, its width corresponding with the part of the spaceship touching the left edge.

    The explanation I got was that it had something to do with the PIP (picture-in-picture) circuit. After the factory had come up with a solution, I got a visit by the Sony tech who swapped a small board for a modified one he was bringing, and changed a couple components on the main board too, with a solder iron.

    I have tried 4 other Sony TVs that didn't have the problem; a 21" I bought in the beginning of 1991, some friend's 25" (can't remember the designations), the successor to my KV-S2913, the KV-S2923, and also the 29" version of the cheaper KV-A series at that time. Neither of these had the NTSC problem. (But the KV-A had the same magenta problem as the KV-S2923 described in previous posts)

    Regards,
    Erling Groes-Petersen
     
  16. nwgarratt

    nwgarratt
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    Thanks Erling for that explanation.

    It must be the laserdisc themselves. I wonder if it is laser-rot?

    I am not that bothered as I don't watch the laserdiscs much anymore. Especially, as I have quite a few on DVD now.
     
  17. Zog

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    Erling............

    Had a closer look at the problem last night. It is exactly as you describe. The stripes relate to high contrast images, but only as they get to the left hand edge of the screen.

    Tried a scene in Matrix with a wall mounted light fitting within a dark corridoor. Everthing is fine until the camera pans right. As the light passes through the left hand side of the picture a light stripe suddenly appears across the screen. This then vanishes once the camera has moved enough for the light to vanish off the left hand side of the picture.

    Relieved now I know I aint on my own.

    You said you have had it fixed by Sony. In an earlier post you implied that it was a factory fix, but your latest post implies that they fixed it in situ. What was the situation.

    Do you have any details at all of the fix and who did it, that might help?

    Anything would be appreciated.........
     
  18. Erling

    Erling
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    It was fixed on the spot, but only after the factory in Germany had figured out what needed to be fixed.

    My contact at Sony Denmark who handled the case was a guy called Morten Friis, but unfortunately he left Sony several years ago, to work with Harman in France, so I don't know where to reach him anymore.

    As mentioned before, the problem is connected to the PIP circuit. It was Morten Friis who visited me and fixed the TV. He changed a small board (the PIP module I would guess) to one he had prepared at work, and he changed a few components on the mainboard. I don't have any further details, i.e. what components.

    Removing the PIP module also fixed the problem, so if you can live without that facility, it may be a way of fixing the problem, if Sony can't dig up the solution they provided in my case. You probably still need a technician who knows these models to do it though; just yanking out the module isn't enough - it has to be bypassed for the TV to work. At least that was the message I got from Morten Friis after he had found out that the PIP module was the culprit, but before the factory in Germany had come up with the solution. (I really wanted to see some laserdiscs on my new TV, so I asked Morten if I couldn't just remove the module myself as a temporary solution, but it wasn't so simple unfortunately).

    I'm curious; did you try to set the DVD player to 'PAL' instead of 'Auto' ? I suspect that 'Auto' means it switches between PAL and NTSC according to the DVD, but 'PAL' might mean it outputs PAL or the closest approximation to it all the time. Could perhaps have an effect on the problem.

    Sorry I can't provide the exact solution, but hope this clears things up a little. Otherwise just ask again.

    Regards,
    Erling
     
  19. Zog

    Zog
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    cheers Erling........

    I tried switching from "Auto" to "PAL". Just got a red bar across the screen with the text "Not PAL".

    Clearly the Tosh should be left on Auto for simplicitys sake.

    Gonna try Sony tomorrow when I remember to bring in exact details of my set.

    Think I'll try by email, then I can even refer them to this thread as proof that I aint makin things up!
     
  20. Erling

    Erling
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    What a bummer with the Tosh.. You wouldn't by any chance have the possibility of trying another player, that does output PAL modified NTSC - maybe borrow a friend's or something like that ?

    Good luck with Sony. You're welcome to refer them to me, and I will try to provide as much information as I can. (Although I can't really add anything that isn't already in this thread).
    Let me know and I'll email you my email addy.

    Regards,
    Erling
     
  21. Zog

    Zog
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    unfortunately, the other 2 DVD players in the family are both integrated within their TV's.

    This may not "approved of" by many, but for simple folk like my parents, who aren't too concerned about the ability to upgrade..........its ideal. And the picture quality is quite awesome, despite what the purists would have you believe.

    I'll let you know how much success I have with Sony.
     
  22. Zog

    Zog
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    Got a reply from an email to Sony via their web site.

    "Thank you for your recent enquiry.

    It would appear from the specifications of your set that you would need to connect your DVD player to the front AV inputs of your television as these will accept an NTSC signal. I trust that this information has helped."

    Not really much help, but I was actually gobsmacked that they took the effort to reply.

    Encouraged by this I have refered them to this thread in the hope that they might look at things in more detail.
     
  23. Erling

    Erling
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    I take it the front inputs didn't work either ?

    I can't remember for sure anymore, but I'm pretty certain that I tried those too when I had the problem.

    Still positive that you got a reply at all. Best of luck with getting the problem fixed.

    Regards,
    Erling
     
  24. Zog

    Zog
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    Ressurecting a long dead thread here but............

    The Beast (as my girlfriend refers to the Sony) died last week so I had an excuse to get it into a Sony approved repair centre.

    Fixed the picture failure, no problems but were unable to sort out this horizintal band nightmare. They said that they had spoken to Sony and had been told that there "...is no solution....".

    I'm not altogether happy with this, but at this point have little idea what steps to take next. Gone to the trouble of getting a top notch audio set-up, a multi-region DVD player, yet am prevented from enjoying them to the fullest by the unfulfilled promises of a TV set which cost me over £2.5K !

    This is frustrating in the extreme....... HELP !!??!!
     
  25. billduff

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    Try having a llook at this thread (a very long one) about a similar problem with other Sony TV's.

    Sony Scrolling Bar thread

    I don't have a Sony TV myself but some of the guys in here may be able to help you.
     
  26. Zog

    Zog
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    Nice try..... found this thread earlier in the week along with a few others on this exhaustive subject. Unfortunately, the scrolling bars to which they refer are vertical and related to 100Hz.

    So I gotta carry on looking !! :zonked:
     
  27. Erling

    Erling
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    Sorry to hear that Zog. That there is no solution is of course not true since I got the problem fixed, by Sony Denmark via the factory in Germany. Finding someone who knows what to do might not be easy, since the guy who facilitated my repair no longer works for Sony (as mentioned earlier)

    If your set is still in the repair centre, you could ask them if they can remove/bypass the picture-in-picture circuit, as this was apparantly causing the problem - assuming of course that you can live without this facility. The guy at Sony who undertook my problem found this solution prior to contacting the factory in Germany. The solution provided by the factory later made it possible to retain the PIP-circuit, which was of course preferable, but I would have given up the PIP-function, if that had been the only solution.

    Hope you can get it fixed.

    Regards,
    Erling
     

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