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Refund

Discussion in 'TVs' started by Dragonoptical, Jan 25, 2004.

  1. Dragonoptical

    Dragonoptical
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    Hi,

    I'm sorry I go a little bit off topic here but I would like to ask something that is very important to me and I think it will help some people on this forum too.
    I recently (saturday 17/01/04) bought a Sony KV-32FX68, but the set is buzzing, I was hesitating if I would give the set back and ask for a new (buzz-free) set but considering the fact that a lot of ppl here did that without getting a buzz-free set (sometimes even after a 3rd swap) I think I'll go for a refund (and buy a Loewe Aventos in another shop, 'cause the shop where I bought the Sony doesn't sell Loewe..., or maybe I'll just wait a few months and buy a plasma).
    The problem is: I don't have the box (the set was in) anymore!
    Could the shop use this as a reason to not give me a refund?
    The other problem is: I phoned the shop Monday 19/01/04 (2 days after I bought the set) to tell them that the set was buzzing and that I would give it back, considering the fact that you have 7 days for a refund could they use the fact that these 7 days allready past (I'v only got time to go to the shop Monday, tomorrow, so that will be 9 days after I bought the set) to not give me a refund?
    Thx a lot four your help!
     
  2. henchard

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    I'm not a solicitor but having had problems with my Sony (see posting elsewhere for the full story) I'm reasonably clued up.

    The important thing (I understand) is to reject the goods under the provisions of the Sale of Goods Act quickly - I sent a recorded delivery letter. Contact your local Trading Standards department who will probably have an information pack with the standard letters etc.

    The following was lifted from here

    http://www.dti.gov.uk/ccp/topics1/facts/salegoodsact.htm

    Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale)

    • If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale a consumer can request their money back "within a reasonable time". (This is not defined and will depend on circumstances)

    • For up to six years after purchase (five years from discovery in Scotland) consumers can demand damages (which a court would equate to the cost of a repair or replacement).

    • At present, the onus is on consumers to prove the good did not conform to contract (e.g. was inherently faulty) and should have reasonably lasted until this point in time (i.e. perishable goods do not last for six years).

    The following are subject to the transposition of the Directive 1999/44/EC via the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations on 31 March 2003:

    • If the consumer chooses to request a repair or replacement, then for the first six months after purchase it will be for the retailer to prove the goods did conform to contract (e.g. were not inherently faulty)

    • After six months and until the end of the six years, it is for the consumer to prove the lack of conformity.

    • If repair and replacement are not possible or too costly, then the consumer can seek a partial refund, if they have had some benefit from the good, or a full refund if the fault/s have meant they have enjoyed no benefit.
     
  3. Joe Pineapples

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    I cant see this being a problem. Many people have to practically rip the box apart to get the tv out, so it can fit through the door. I also happened to notice the other day outside Currys, someone taking home a brand new widescreen themselves in the car; it wouldnt fit in with the box, so that was left behind with the Currys assistant.

    The fact that you contacted them within 2 days about the problem, should make it ok. Did you actually explain at that time that you wouldnt be able to return the tv straight away?.
     
  4. Dragonoptical

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    Thx for your quick replys guys!

    Deansimm: Indeed, I had to rip the box apart too so it would go through the door, the reason why I was worried about the box is that when I contacted the shop (when I contacted them I did tell them that I wouldn't be able to return the tv straight away, so hopefully they will remember that) they asked me to bring the box back too because apparently there's a serial nr on the box (matching the serial on the set), at that time I didn't knew the box was thrown away (by my mother....) so I told them it wasn't a problem. Well tomorrow I'm going to bring the set back, I'll see what they will tell me, I'm sure that they will tell me that they can give me another set in the place but I'll tell them that after I'v been on this forum I'm aware of the fact that a lot of ppl have the same buzzing-problem as I have and that I prefere to have a refund...
    I'll let you guys know what happened tomorrow.
     
  5. alfablue

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    Dragon

    Reject the goods - stick out for a refund. Dont take another set, with the high probability of the same fault it could lead to much more hassle. Also, I am sure you have lost faith in this particular model (if not brand).

    As for the box, surely the S/N would be on the set and invoice - the box would, of course, make it easy for them to resell the set, but given that the refund is for reasons of a fault I can't see that they can demand the box. If they say "only an exchange without the box" that would be B.S. and contrary to your rights (and would suggest to me their intent to resell to some poor mug who may not be up to resolving it).

    BUT - I reckon there's a good chance you won't get hassle.

    Good luck
     
  6. alfablue

    alfablue
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    might be worth printing out the posts on this forum that report buzzing, and take them with you, might help stop them persuading you to accept a replacement (though you just need to flatly refuse).
     
  7. Dragonoptical

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    Thx a lot for your support alfablue!

    Tomorrow I'll go to the shop to bring the set back, I'm curious what they'll say, I'll let you guys know in a day or two.
     
  8. Mungo

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    It is important to remember the rights you have under law as described above under the Sales of Goods Act etc and those which the manufacturer or retailer offers in addition. The retailer is not allowed by law to get you to waive those Sales of Goods Act rights (they often call them your statutory rights). So those you have anyway.

    Some retailers also offer a quibble free return which is where the "box issue" may come into play. Under your statutory rights, unless you bought the goods online, you are not allowed to reject the goods without fault. If the retailer offers a no quibble return then you can return the goods just because you've changed your mind. However there are often conditions attached- since the goods are not damaged the retailer will want to resell so he needs the packaging and manuals etc to put it back on display or in stock. TVs come with masses of packing so it would be a nuisance to sell without. In these sort of deals one ofetn sees reference to returning the goods in their "original packaging".

    So in short-

    if faulty (as yours seems to be)- box should not be an issue and if they demand it then they are probably breaking the law.

    If not faulty- box may be required depending on the terms of the no-hassle return.

    Hope you get what you want today.
     
  9. alfablue

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    Probably it will come down to whether buzzing is a fault (clearly it would be to any user), or normal operating parameters (as manufacturers with lax quality control will argue). I wouldn't accept the latter position.
     
  10. Dragonoptical

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    Thx Mungo! but...

    I went today to the shop to bring my set back...and I must say it's been a while since I'v been that angry.
    Since I need a tv anyway I thought I would ask to exchange my set for a tv from another brand (probably Loewe).
    So I asked the lady from the shop if I could to that and she sayd "If you don't have the box we can't give you a set from another brand or give you a refund...". I was shocked, I asked her why she needed the box anyway since the set has a fault, then she told me they sold 18 Sony KV-32FX68 sets and only one was returned (she didn't even told me why that set was returned, maybe because of the same problem I have with mine...?) and that she wasn't aware of the "buzzing sound" fault.
    So my only option was to exchange my Sony KV-32FX68 for another (new) Sony KV-32FX68...
    I knew I would have the same problem with that new set and I was right: the Sony KV-32FX68 that I have now is making the same buzzing sound.... :(
    So what now? To be frank I don't know, call Sony (Belgium) and ask them if they are aware of that problem (I'll tell them about the technical bulletin TV07602), and then? If the shop I bought my set at refuse to give me a refund I guess I won't be able to get a refund through Sony? What else could I do? Ask them if they have a technician that is aware of the problem (and aware of the technical bulletin TV07602) and that could fix my tv (but a lot of people here tryed that without any results).
    Any advice is welcome, and thx to henchard, Deansimm, alfablue and Mungo for helping! (and the people behind avforums for the powerful tool they give us so we can easily talk about our av-related problems, respect!).
     
  11. alfablue

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    It's down to the shop - the buck stops there.

    Write a letter entitled "notice prior to action"

    State what happened, and that you will give them 7 days from the day they receive it to come and collect the goods and issue a full refund, or you will be persuing a claim in the small claims court. Advise them that the claim will include all expenses, such as additional transport costs for your delivery and collection (you did today), plus expenses for inspection by an independent engineer, and your court fees.

    State that the TV is not of merchantable quality or fit for purpose (Sale of goods act, implied terms) (how can an AV product be fit for purpose if it buzzes - its not a fridge) because of this fault and that you are rejecting the goods as is your right under the consumer protection act (sorry, forgot the date, but you will find it on the web). State that you are not willing to accept a repair, and to date you have had no benefit or enjoyment from thes faulty goods.

    Then wait the seven days and do as you have said you will do (its p*ss easy).

    Send the letter "signed for", keep all copies, do not under any circumstances accept a repair or replacement, or anything to do with the manufacturer - they are irrelevant - its the shop.
     
  12. alfablue

    alfablue
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    and I would say, though it is really irrelevant, a) 1 in 18 return rate is poor, b) some customers may be putting up with it, c) i would never accept that the person has complete product knowledge just from the returns to one shop, d) the box is irrelevant, because they shouldn't want to resell faulty goods, and

    e) more relevant, the shop has tried to deny your statutory rights, and should be reported to the trading standards (put that in your letter).
     
  13. alfablue

    alfablue
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    all forms, fees and instructions on small claims court are available on the Court Services web page. Fees are pro rata the amount claimed, I'm guessing that it would be about £50 and there are no other costs even if you lose. Once you pay a fee you go through with it, or they agree to pay the fee if they decide to settle b4 court - which they will do unless they are very stupid and / or arrogant.
     
  14. alfablue

    alfablue
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    p.s. the letter will cost about £0.70p "signed for" - you don't need to do or pay for the court thing for at least 7 days, by which time they will have sorted it.

    It worked for my out of guarantee washing machine, with a major retailer. They gave me the real runarround, so I wrote the "notice prior to action" and just sat back and chilled out.

    2 days after the letter they sorted it, nice apologetic phone call and a solution. Its much better than getting into protracted and drawn out arguments and half-baked solutions. They've had their chance to do the right thing and they haven't.

    Sorry to go on, but i reckon i am nearly as angry as you - been there, got the t shirt!
     
  15. pward

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    Hi all,

    I notice that Dragonoptical is located in Belgium.

    Presumably his situation will therefore come under Belgian consumer law rather than the UK regulations?

    Cheers,

    Paul
     
  16. alfablue

    alfablue
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    oh - wow - i never noticed that! So all my stuff is bunk.

    I have the impression that some European countries have well sorted consumer laws, maybe Belgium does!
     
  17. alfablue

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  18. Mungo

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    I believe the UK consumer protection laws were the UK implementation of European consumer protection laws which are often much stronger than here (for instance it is the EU commission which is driving the 2 year warranty which has received some publicity here although I do not know whether its in force).

    A lot of what alfablue has said still holds keeping receipts, writing the letter but obviously the process will differ if Belgium does have an equivalent to the small claims court.

    The fact that the say "only" 1 out of 18 have been returned is irrelevant. They could have sold thousands but if yours buzzes its still faulty. You need to check out the Belgian law but stand your ground- they may just be trying to face you down. Illegally probably.

    BTW you may have a Sony manufacturer's warranty as well as your legal rights so it might be worth a call to them as well.
     
  19. Dragonoptical

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    Thx again for the advice guys!

    I think I'll follow alfablue's advice: I'll write a letter to warn them about legal action I'll take if they don't offer me a refund.
    I'll let you know how the situation evolves.
    Cheers!
     
  20. stejcoolj

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    Don't know much about the law in Belgium but I would - in the first instance suggest the "soft but firm"approach. The first thing I'd do is try and speak to the manager - in my experience, lots of shop floor staff are petrified of authorising refunds because they think it's "bad for business". Managers, on the other hand, see the big picture and are more happy to come to an agreement with you (it doesn't hurt to mention that you are a regular customer and that you also intend to buy something else from them in the future - the more expensive the better!).

    If this approach fails, then you can start hostilities!
     
  21. Dragonoptical

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    Actually I just talked to a friend (he went to law-school) who exactly told me the same thing you did stejcoolj, and I think I'll do that (talk to the manager) before sending them a letter (if talking doesn't help).
    I'll post an update when I'v got news, thx again y'all!
     
  22. rvd48

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    i think im one of the **VERY** lucky ones!!!:clap:

    after all the **** i went through with argos:( :suicide: . my 1st sony 32" tv went wrong 4 times with the same fault. then my 2nd replacement was a philips pixel+ which had the dreaded symptoms.

    phoned them and told them to take away my philips set & gimmie a refund, they sed no way:mad: . phoned again, and they said they would collect my tv and give me a refund.

    all in all i am a lucky son of a gun:zonked: because i was out of my original 12 month warrenty period by 1 month and whats more shocking :zonked: was the fact that i got a full refund, its only when you start having problems that you see some scale of the disorganisation of these corporate companies.
     
  23. Dragonoptical

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    I'm glad you had a full refund rvd48!
    But in my eyes it's totally normal that someone who had to change several times from tv-sets, because they all had a fault, gets his money back, situations like that makes me wonder: how much must we pay to have a good working tv-set?! We are all victims of big company's, bringing crappy tv-sets out just to make extra money...

    ps: which sony 32" tv did you have and what was the fault?
     
  24. rvd48

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    Dragonoptical
    i had this one , it looked like a classy set (bought from argos at £875 13 months ago. the tv channels spontanously became fuzzy through the RF input, i put it down the the tuner being faulty, the problem came and went twice! :rolleyes: . then while the problem was showing the engineers came, gave me some mouth when i complained and took the big muthva bertha away:clap:
    . they brought the tv back one month later and the problem came back the next day, then it went away, then it came back 2 weeks later. they finally said it was uneconomical to fix it:clap: . i hate argos:mad: (this is just a 1/4 of my story).

    the sad thing was when i phoned to ask for a refund for my second tv, (philips 32"), the guy at argos said i bought this tv directly to try for a refund, he said i was only entitled to a replacement for the same model.:suicide: i was very frustrated at his yonkey a*ss. but i got some gud ppl at argos actually helped me:clap:
     
  25. alfablue

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    If a product is out of warranty does not mean you shouldn't have a refund, or at least a repair or replacement. The warranties do in some ways act against the customer, because retailers hide behind them (sometimes referring you on to the manufacturer, whilst it is the seller that is culpable) and use them as a way of escaping responsibility after 1 year.

    If a TV failed after 14 months, would it be considered to be reasonable / acceptable? Although a sellers T&C's may state that there is a 12 month period, in practice, courts have found in favour of litigants in this situation. (People can write what T's& C's they like, but they are not enforceable if they conflict with the law). Sometimes this will not be the price in full, but with a deduction to represent the period during which the product was okay. Nevertheless, the sellers still had a duty to sell goods of reasonable quality, fit for purpose etc, which would usually be taken to mean working a good deal longer than 1 year.

    I did however, nearly burst a gasket, when Argos told me on one occasion, they wouldn't do anything because the warranty was "nearly up" - in 3 weeks time!!!!! (This was quickly resolved however!)
     
  26. Dragonoptical

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    Hi again, I know it's been a while, but I'v got some news.

    After talking for a second time to the manager of the shop I was forced to send the shop a letter because they still didn't wanted to give me a refund :(
    Finally this week I received a letter from the sales manager from the shop, he told me that they were working with the technical service from Sony and that they would change the F-Board of my set (http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65955&highlight=Sony+buzzing+solved),
    so I guess I'll take their offer and hope that after they changed the F-Board my tv will be buzz-free...
    I'll post an update once I'v got my tv back.
     

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