Recommendation needed for amplifier power for speaker Paradigm Prestige 75F

terrykuiho

Novice Member
Hello all, this is my first post:)

and I recently bought a pair of Paradigm Prestige 75F speakers. I have an old AV receiver Yamaha RX-V675 which is outputting 90W per channel.
I wonder if that is enough power for the 75F. I have read the speaker manual which says the speakers should not be used with a amplifier which powers low wattage and speakers will be damaged.

may I have your expertise?

thank you so much

Terry
 

ShanePJ

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
I feel in reality, you should fine (although those speakers do require better) unless you are driving the amp at very high volumes as the speakers look easier to drive. The specs also show that amps rated between 15 - 220 watts are fine. Now with any speakers, room size is always something to think about as a larger room means you do not always notice that you are pushing the amp and this is where you may find the V675 could fall below par

Now as I mentioned these are quite capable speakers, you really want to spend as much as you can. I would say that from the Yamaha range, a minimum of A4A would be better suited, a better partner would be the A6A or A8A as its the headroom you are ultimately buying in the amps when you move up the range. This is hugely important when you have better speakers. But again room size still matters even at this level if you are going to push the speakers hard
 

terrykuiho

Novice Member
I feel in reality, you should fine (although those speakers do require better) unless you are driving the amp at very high volumes as the speakers look easier to drive. The specs also show that amps rated between 15 - 220 watts are fine. Now with any speakers, room size is always something to think about as a larger room means you do not always notice that you are pushing the amp and this is where you may find the V675 could fall below par

Now as I mentioned these are quite capable speakers, you really want to spend as much as you can. I would say that from the Yamaha range, a minimum of A4A would be better suited, a better partner would be the A6A or A8A as its the headroom you are ultimately buying in the amps when you move up the range. This is hugely important when you have better speakers. But again room size still matters even at this level if you are going to push the speakers hard
HI Shane,

Thanks for getting back to me. Yes, I am aware that the speakers are underuse. I am actually planning to upgrade my AVR as well as going to setup a (or 2) separate amp (maybe bi-amp) to power the speakers. I am trying to do this in sequence and next component that I am thinking to upgrade is the AVR. I have been looking into the A6A or Anthem MRX540 or MRX740. before that, I already ordered an AudioQuest Rocket 33 cable and hopefully, it will improve the quality a little bit for now.

If you have any suggestions please feel free to let me know.

BTW my room size is like a 4 meters * 5 Meters with 4 meters ceiling.

Thanks so much,

Terry
 

ShanePJ

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
Any of the amps at that price point you are looking at will be fine. Don’t forget to add Arcam, Marantz and Denon into that mix.

If you are thinking of bi-amping from one amp, I’d give that a miss, but if you are looking at adding a power amp and it’s for stereo sounds, you could look at an amp with HT-Bypass. This way you can use it to drive the front two as a power amp when using the avr side and then for music, you can use the stereo amp as you would’ve normally done

Which every you go, just ensure you treat the speaker right as they’ll surprise you every day if you drive them right
 

terrykuiho

Novice Member
Any of the amps at that price point you are looking at will be fine. Don’t forget to add Arcam, Marantz and Denon into that mix.

If you are thinking of bi-amping from one amp, I’d give that a miss, but if you are looking at adding a power amp and it’s for stereo sounds, you could look at an amp with HT-Bypass. This way you can use it to drive the front two as a power amp when using the avr side and then for music, you can use the stereo amp as you would’ve normally done

Which every you go, just ensure you treat the speaker right as they’ll surprise you every day if you drive them right
Hi Shane,

Thanks for the reply. I actually has a doubt.

A proper bi-amp setup needs 2 amplifiers. The setup can be horizontal or vertical bi-amp. And the power will be double = Amp A + Amp B. And if using vertical bi-amp (mono mode) then the power will be even increased further.

However, I saw there are AVR that is multi-channel and they have ability to bi-amp the speakers by just using 1 single AVR. Those AVR use another 2 channels other than the front L and R for bi-amp. Do you know if that gives any benefits to the audio quality?

Thanks,

Terry
 

ShanePJ

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
If your looking at an AVR for bi-amping, most AVR use differing power outputs for the front two speaker outputs compared to the other channels. So yes you can use them for bi-amping, but be aware that you could ultimately reduce the performance levels over using it as a single ended amp

As for using power amps, if you have the option for mono usage, then I’d go down that route, but I’ve never heard a poor bi-amp’d solution
 

terrykuiho

Novice Member
If your looking at an AVR for bi-amping, most AVR use differing power outputs for the front two speaker outputs compared to the other channels. So yes you can use them for bi-amping, but be aware that you could ultimately reduce the performance levels over using it as a single ended amp

As for using power amps, if you have the option for mono usage, then I’d go down that route, but I’ve never heard a poor bi-amp’d solution
Oh so are you saying the single AVR bi-amping is not ideal because the power output of the front two speakers is different than other channels and therefore, the bi-amp will be unbalanced?
 

ShanePJ

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
It's sadly a little more complex than just what I've added, but as a rule, if you are using an avr, its best to use them as single ended unless the manufacturer claims different which at the level you are looking at, some do (so, then you need to hear it for yourself as to whether its any different)

I have an old AVR at home and my speakers are tri-wired via a single ended connections into the main fronts (so it's six cables into two, both sides). I do use the bi-amping feature, but that's just for convenience to send the signal to the woofer via the high level connection as its easier to do it that way at home (having eight cables into four is asking a little to much). As for Bi-Wiring, some people don't bother with it from one amp as its hard to tell if you can hear the difference (plus as mentioned many AVR's do have differing power outputs for just the front stereo outputs) whereas bi-amping/bi-wiring is another thing altogether
 

terrykuiho

Novice Member
It's sadly a little more complex than just what I've added, but as a rule, if you are using an avr, its best to use them as single ended unless the manufacturer claims different which at the level you are looking at, some do (so, then you need to hear it for yourself as to whether its any different)

I have an old AVR at home and my speakers are tri-wired via a single ended connections into the main fronts (so it's six cables into two, both sides). I do use the bi-amping feature, but that's just for convenience to send the signal to the woofer via the high level connection as its easier to do it that way at home (having eight cables into four is asking a little to much). As for Bi-Wiring, some people don't bother with it from one amp as its hard to tell if you can hear the difference (plus as mentioned many AVR's do have differing power outputs for just the front stereo outputs) whereas bi-amping/bi-wiring is another thing altogether
Hi Shane, actually I just followed the setup in the manual of the Yamaha RX-V675 which it specified a bi-amp recommended configuration. The configuration is that I connected the speakers' Highs to the font L/R and connected the speakers' Lows to the surround backs. I think it sounds better with the bi-amp.

And in the next year, I think I will go ahead and do the upgrade to better pair with my Paradigm speakers. I am thinking of maybe getting a NAD C386 + C286 for my stereo music. If I do that, then I need to have an AVR which has a pre-out as my current V675 doesn't have. And as I mentioned previously, I am looking into Yamaha A6A or Anthem MRX740 or something equivalent.

I actually have a question, for the AVR with pre-out, does it matter that I need to get one with good music pre-amplification? Does the music tone, vibe and soundstage will be greatly affected by the AVR with pre-amp?
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
I recently bought a pair of Paradigm Prestige 75F speakers. I have an old AV receiver Yamaha RX-V675 which is outputting 90W per channel.
I wonder if that is enough power for the 75F.
What volume level are you listening at?

According to my maths, from a power perspective that AVR should be capable of safely driving those 89dB speakers to about 9dB below reference level at your seat which is louder than most people want to listen to.
 

terrykuiho

Novice Member
What volume level are you listening at?

According to my maths, from a power perspective that AVR should be capable of safely driving those 89dB speakers to about 9dB below reference level at your seat which is louder than most people want to listen to.
I usually listen in between the range -55db to -40db. I am a newbie of audiophile, how do you calculate my speaker is 89 db and what is 9db below reference level? is it 80db (89-9)?
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
I usually listen in between the range -55db to -40db. I am a newbie of audiophile, how do you calculate my speaker is 89 db and what is 9db below reference level? is it 80db (89-9)?
89dB is your speakers' rated sensitivity which is how much SPL it generates at 1 metre when fed 1W of power (2.83V/8-Ohms). Doubling power causes the speaker to output 3dB more so 2W = 92dB, 4W=95dB etc.

Reference level is the extremely volume level you may experience in a cinema with an average soundtrack level of 85dB with 105dB transient peaks in the front speaker channels. It's the equivalent to 0dB on the volume dial in a calibrated system so your -40dB volume = 40dB below reference.

If you're listening no higher than -40dB then you have more than enough power to drive those speakers and masses of dynamic headroom.
 
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terrykuiho

Novice Member
89dB is your speakers' rated sensitivity which is how much SPL it generates at 1 metre when fed 1W of power (2.83V/8-Ohms). Doubling power causes the speaker to output 3dB more so 2W = 92dB, 4W=95dB etc.

Reference level is the extremely volume level you may experience in a cinema with an average soundtrack level of 85dB with 105dB transient peaks in the front speaker channels. It's the equivalent to 0dB on the volume dial in a calibrated system so your -40dB volume = 40dB below reference.

If you're listening no higher than -40dB then you have more than enough power to drive those speakers and masses of dynamic headroom.
Thanks and in summary, I can turn the volume safely up to -9 db, if that’s what you mean. Just curious how do you calculate the 9 db below reference level is the safe point?
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
Just curious how do you calculate the 9 db below reference level is the safe point?

Sensitivity rating (89) minus Derating factor (1) minus Dispersion loss at MLP (7) plus Amplifier gain from 64W (18) minus Reference peak SPL (105) minus Headroom requirement (3) = -9dB
 

terrykuiho

Novice Member
Sensitivity rating (89) minus Derating factor (1) minus Dispersion loss at MLP (7) plus Amplifier gain from 64W (18) minus Reference peak SPL (105) minus Headroom requirement (3) = -9dB
THAT'S A COMPLEX CALCULATION! Thanks. And do you have a online website/calculator which helps to calculate?
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
THAT'S A COMPLEX CALCULATION! Thanks. And do you have a online website/calculator which helps to calculate?
No but I used online formula to create this ready reckoner table for Denon AVRs with different power outputs and speakers of different sensivity.

You’ll find your -9dB safe volume limit where the X2700 (similar power to yours) column intersects with the 89dB LCR sensivity row.

1631550317303.png
 

terrykuiho

Novice Member
No but I used online formula to create this ready reckoner table for Denon AVRs with different power outputs and speakers of different sensivity.

You’ll find your -9dB safe volume limit where the X2700 (similar power to yours) column intersects with the 89dB LCR sensivity row.

View attachment 1570064
My friend! this is very helpful and interesting. I am surprised how little the increase is when the power increase from left to right and when the speaker sensitivity increase from top to bottom. We need to pay a lot to get those little increases.
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
That’s simply because it takes exactly double the amplifier power to generate 3dB more SPL which is only a 23% increase in perceived loudness. Using a 3dB more sensitive speaker achieves the same increase in SPL. This is why it pays to choose sensitive speakers for your LCR channels if your want to listen at high levels.
 

terrykuiho

Novice Member
That’s simply because it takes exactly double the amplifier power to generate 3dB more SPL which is only a 23% increase in perceived loudness. Using a 3dB more sensitive speaker achieves the same increase in SPL. This is why it pays to choose sensitive speakers for your LCR channels if your want to listen at high levels.
So if I don't need to listen to very high volume but I want to have good sonic quality, then an amplifier with low power but good sonic construction and material still can be considered? I have been always keeping thinking to get a very high-power receiver for my upgrade so perhaps that is not the right approach... So if you got to choose how to spend your budget, will you choose 1) one receiver with bigger power or 2) two less power amp but can be bi-amp?
 

gibbsy

Moderator
So if I don't need to listen to very high volume but I want to have good sonic quality, then an amplifier with low power but good sonic construction and material still can be considered? I have been always keeping thinking to get a very high-power receiver for my upgrade so perhaps that is not the right approach... So if you got to choose how to spend your budget, will you choose 1) one receiver with bigger power or 2) two less power amp but can be bi-amp?
The bigger, more powerful amps, certainly from Denon, have better quality components and amps on board. Sonically each tier sounds that little better. Personally I don't see any benefit in passive bi-amping from the same receiver. Even if you choose a less powerful receiver and decide to bi-amp you will still be drawing power from the same PSU. Giving with one hand and taking it away with another.

If you feel more power is needed then a simple power amp will give the extra headroom and also relieve the burden of those channels from the receiver and the power distributed to the remaining connected speakers.
 

terrykuiho

Novice Member
The bigger, more powerful amps, certainly from Denon, have better quality components and amps on board. Sonically each tier sounds that little better. Personally I don't see any benefit in passive bi-amping from the same receiver. Even if you choose a less powerful receiver and decide to bi-amp you will still be drawing power from the same PSU. Giving with one hand and taking it away with another.

If you feel more power is needed then a simple power amp will give the extra headroom and also relieve the burden of those channels from the receiver and the power distributed to the remaining connected speakers.
Hi, by Bi-amp I mean I will purchase 2 power amplifiers, will it give significantly better sonic quality?
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Hi, by Bi-amp I mean I will purchase 2 power amplifiers, will it give significantly better sonic quality?
Bi-amping from two identical power amps will provide a balanced output and give good separation between the low and high frequencies certainly. A good power amp, or pair of them, should ideally reproduce faithfully the audio signature of the pre-amp. If that's poor then all you are doing is amplifying that signal. That's why a lot of people get the best processor available to go with power amps.

A power amp, or two, as well as affording separation of highs and lows, will give more headroom and avoid clipping and distortion. I use the power amp of my integrated stereo amp, not because I need that extra power but because I don't like my Denon for stereo music presentation. Apart from your higher ceiling your floor area is roughly the same as my living room set up.
 

terrykuiho

Novice Member
Bi-amping from two identical power amps will provide a balanced output and give good separation between the low and high frequencies certainly. A good power amp, or pair of them, should ideally reproduce faithfully the audio signature of the pre-amp. If that's poor then all you are doing is amplifying that signal. That's why a lot of people get the best processor available to go with power amps.

A power amp, or two, as well as affording separation of highs and lows, will give more headroom and avoid clipping and distortion. I use the power amp of my integrated stereo amp, not because I need that extra power but because I don't like my Denon for stereo music presentation. Apart from your higher ceiling your floor area is roughly the same as my living room set up.
Oh I learn something new, again. So the pre-amp (a dedicated) gives bigger effect on sonic quality compare to power amps which just purely amplifies the signal. So I should invest in a better pre-amp? either an pure pre-amp, integrated amp, or a good AVR with good preamp quality?
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Oh I learn something new, again. So the pre-amp (a dedicated) gives bigger effect on sonic quality compare to power amps which just purely amplifies the signal. So I should invest in a better pre-amp? either an pure pre-amp, integrated amp, or a good AVR with good preamp quality?
You can't run a pre-amp with an AV amp. The AV amp must do the decoding. You can get processors from Marantz and couple them with power amps. A combination which will be sonically better because the processing and amplification is separated. It's an expensive option.

A lot depends on what you are looking to produce at the end of the day. The biggest question that's often asked is if you want to use the same system, or rather the front speakers, for quality music as well as surround sound. Remember though that the room is equally as important as the speakers that are in it.

Take a look at this link and look at the products available.

 

ShanePJ

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
I actually have a question, for the AVR with pre-out, does it matter that I need to get one with good music pre-amplification? Does the music tone, vibe and soundstage will be greatly affected by the AVR with pre-amp?
No, as you will not be using the AVR for music if you are using an Stereo Integrated Amp which takes advantage of the HT Bypass solution.

When using this solution, your main front speakers (Left/Right) will be connected to the stereo amp. The pre-outs will be connected to the HT bypass connection on here. Now for music, the sources you wish to hear should be connected to the stereo amp and not the AVR, but lest say you have a Blu-ray player which you also wish to use for music, then if you use the AVR which sends the signal to the amp via the HT bypass, the stereo amplifier will have no control over how that sounds, however if you have a capable Blu-ray player which has a good DAC built in, then you will usually find that it will have some RCA outputs at best or at least an optical/coaxial output. This give you two options, the first one is to simply connect the RCA outputs to the CD input on the stereo amp. This way, you will still use the HDMI to the AVR for films, but when you are wishing to hear music via the same source, you would simply switch the source over on the stereo amp to CD and turn the AVR off. This would then allow you to hear what the stereo amp has on offer.

If you was to use the optical output, then this would mean you need to look at either a stereo amp with a built in DAC or a separate DAC to decode the bitstream feed from the Blu-ray player. This means you don't need to spend as high on the Blu-ray player as it will not be doing anything with the sound, but of course you will be spending more on the stereo amp or extra on a DAC.

Now, if you are going to run down the route of a separate CD and Blu-ray player, then as you have guessed, simply connect the CD to the Stereo Amp and the Blu-ray player to the AVR via HDMI. Like using bitstream or the RCA's you would simply turn off the AVR and switch the source from HT-Bypass to what ever input you wish to hear.

Many people use this option as its the simplest one for those who wish to create a dual system in one room
 

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