Recommendation in £1500-2000 range

KenX

Standard Member
Hi,
I have rather limited experience from subs and I don't feel like spending weeks and many, many listening hours testing various subs, so I'm looking for recommendations of a few subs that I can compare.

I want something that:

  • goes low, i.e. preferably to 15-17Hz.
  • has super fast dynamics and although I'm not really planning to use it for music, this is still the reference. Clarity, attack, musicality, low distortion, ...
  • is size efficient, i.e. preferably not larger than 45x45x45 cm3
  • has good build quality and preferably is available in american cherry finish
  • is in the price range £1500-2000 (might also consider a used one)
From reviews, forums and recommendations, it seems that the Velodyne DD series has a candidate in e.g. the DD-12 or maybe even DD-15 although it is a bit large, and perhaps a bit expensive.
If I want to compare this with 2-3 other subs, what do you recommend?

From reviews the Veldodyne DD-10/12/15 seem to be superior to almost everything else, but I really don't trust reviews much..
What are the disadvantages of the DD-series?
Is there a big difference between the different sizes, i.e. DD-10/12/15?
Is the DD-10 per chance more distinct than the DD-15, but doesn't just go as low
in frequency as the DD-15??
 

Ettepet

Novice Member
Subs coming out in a few months:

- Mark Seaton's new SubMersive-1, $1995, small, 2x 15" drivers, 1kW, sealed.
- AV123's BMF-sub, $1999, average size, 1x 15" driver, 3x 18" passive radiators, 1kW.
 

AngelEyes

Distinguished Member
You would arguably get a bit more VFM with a larger SVS (PB12+, +2)and an SMS-1, if you are in the US then get an Ultra.

They are available in a variety of finishes including Cherry but might not meet your size requirements :)

www.svsound.com
 

MarkE19

Moderator
KenX said:
From reviews, forums and recommendations, it seems that the Velodyne DD series has a candidate in e.g. the DD-12 or maybe even DD-15 although it is a bit large, and perhaps a bit expensive.
The DD-12 is a fair bit smaller than the DD-15. I borrowed a DD-12 when I had a problem with my DD-15 and couldn't believe how much smaller it was. But saying that the DD-15 is only slightly bigger than your required size. One advantage (perhaps) of the DD-15 over the DD-12 is that it is THX Ultra 2 certified, and is one of only 8 subs (IIRC) to be so (a total of 4 of the 8 being Velodyne subs).
The Velo DD subs are so highly thought of because of the built in EQ features that make it far easier to intergrate into any system. If you can't/don't want to demo a sub in your room then this is a massive advantage as even the best subs might not 'work' in your room.
KenX said:
From reviews the Veldodyne DD-10/12/15 seem to be superior to almost everything else, but I really don't trust reviews much..
What are the disadvantages of the DD-series?
Their price, and for some their size.

Mark.
 

KenX

Standard Member
When it comes to THX classing, I can live without it since it per se doesn't add to performance, but just to the price tag.

What about difference in sound between the DD-12 and the DD-15?
Don't they both have the same amplifier? If so, I can even think of advantages with the DD-12 since the amp in theory could drive a 12" element better than a 15" element.

MarkE19 said:
The DD-12 is a fair bit smaller than the DD-15. I borrowed a DD-12 when I had a problem with my DD-15 and couldn't believe how much smaller it was. But saying that the DD-15 is only slightly bigger than your required size. One advantage (perhaps) of the DD-15 over the DD-12 is that it is THX Ultra 2 certified, and is one of only 8 subs (IIRC) to be so (a total of 4 of the 8 being Velodyne subs).
The Velo DD subs are so highly thought of because of the built in EQ features that make it far easier to intergrate into any system. If you can't/don't want to demo a sub in your room then this is a massive advantage as even the best subs might not 'work' in your room.

Their price, and for some their size.

Mark.
 

MarkE19

Moderator
KenX said:
When it comes to THX classing, I can live without it since it per se doesn't add to performance, but just to the price tag.
That is why I put the 'perhaps' in my statement about THX. I know the requirements for Ultra 2 in a sub are very strict, so if it has it you know it is a good sub, but not having it doesn't mean its a bad sub. The DD-12 may even be good enough, but maybe just wasn't sent for cerification.
KenX said:
What about difference in sound between the DD-12 and the DD-15?
I only had the DD-12 for a few days and therefore didn't spend too much time setting it up fully. So I can't really compare them that well, but it was still very good IMO. According to the Velodyne specs the DD-12 goes down to 17Hz and the DD-15 to 15Hz, but specs on paper can be very misleading.
KenX said:
Don't they both have the same amplifier? If so, I can even think of advantages with the DD-12 since the amp in theory could drive a 12" element better than a 15" element.
Yes, all the DD range have the same amp - 1250w RMS/3000w peak. With that much power I doubt a smaller woofer would offer any real advantages with easier moving of the cone.

Mark.
 
R

recruit

Guest
All of the DD range are excellent subs and if looking for something small and powerfull with lots of punchy bass then both the DD10 and DD12 offer that in spades :thumbsup:
 

MarkE19

Moderator
And I can't believe you are selling both of yours :nono:

You change your AV gear faster than I can change my socks :D

Mark.
 
R

recruit

Guest
MarkE19 said:
And I can't believe you are selling both of yours :nono:

You change your AV gear faster than I can change my socks :D

Mark.
:rolleyes: .... :devil:
 

KenX

Standard Member
Has anyone on this forum anything to say about the difference between DD10 DD12 and DD15 in terms off sound, and then I'm not referring to the tabulated numbers, but to listening experience. Is the difference very obvious if you to an A/B sort of test, or better, and blind test over a longer period of time?

Where, in frequency, does the typical .1 track go? My guess is that it is extremely rare that it goes below 20Hz, but I may be wrong.
 

Nimby

Well-known Member
KenX said:
Where, in frequency, does the typical .1 track go? My guess is that it is extremely rare that it goes below 20Hz, but I may be wrong.
It's odd how this "counter-rumour" comes up so frequently when in fact there are lists on many subwoofer forums and websites of seriously bassy material. Some forums even have SpectrumLab colour graphs of the frequencies and levels involved. As an example "Blackhawk Down" is supposed to have 7Hz material recorded in the helicopter sequences.

10Hz is far more common than you would believe but most subs don't even attempt it. Even if they did you wouldn't hear anything as it is completely inaudible to anything byut whales and elephants. Did you know elephants communicate at around 8Hz over several miles distance? Nobody did until recently because of the inaudibility of these very low audio frequencies. What these VLFs do in an AV situation is pressurise the room if played at high enough levels. Even then there are specific frequencies which are easier to sense than others.

To play 10Hz at noticeable levels requires an awful lot of air movement. This requires very large drivers moving serious distances. An IB is presently the only serious attempt at sub 15Hz frequencies with low distortion. Though some succcess can be had from very large reflex enclosures using long-throw 15" or 18" drivers or even multiple drivers.

So-called Sonotube subs are an example of this type of reflex enclosure and are often capable of considerable VLF extension. The problem with the reflex approach is the the higher level of harmonic distortion compared to an IB. Audible harmonics can completely mask the VLF fundamental. All subs capable of serious output in the infrasonic region tend to be larger than most AV fans will even consider.

Multiple SVS 16-46s have been used by at least one American HT fan looking for that elusive infrasonic pressurisation in larger spaces. Eight of these big cylinders can reach 15Hz without problem at high levels but they roll off fairly rapidly below their tuning 16Hz point. My single one will still badly rattle the windows at 12Hz. I admit that I can't sense this frequency directly but can notice the effect it has on the room. A 10Hz test tone from my IB will make our roof literally heave and creak. The doors bend 1" in their frames so that they can't be held still no matter how hard I try. It is amazing how resistant glass is to breaking at VLFs!

A new form of subwoofer invented by a clever American gentleman called Thigpen uses what looks like a typical office fan. This particular fan it is fitted with variable pitch blades controlled by the audio signal. This invention supposed to be able to play down to DC at 120dB. It is still under development and requires a very large enclosure and lots of money to buy pre-production models.

None of this would be happning if there weren't lots of very low frequencies to be reproduced from present day CDs and DVDs. Vinyl is supposed to be much more limited in bass extension. Though I have organ recordings which have lots of recorded rumble. I can still remember many warped records producing slow cyclic cone movements and very audible rumble from my 1970s reflex enclosures.
 

rhino2k

Well-known Member
how about a pair of svs PB12's :D small and well under your budget and will give excellent performance. could even get four in budget :devil:

they dont go quite as low as you want though, i think they go to about 20hz but the guy who demod them to me said it was worth losing for the clarity you gain :thumbsup:
 

KenX

Standard Member
With active amping my speakers go down to at least 25Hz, so I'm really looking
for the sub 30Hz range I suppose. A sub that doesn't go below 20Hz wouldn't make sense (I think), but to get below 15Hz it both becomes to expensive a too bulky. Velodyne DD12/15 is what I've got hooked on, but I will try to compare with some of the above suggestions, though it might be hard to arrange.

I would really expect a price drop in the next 12 months, so that a subwoofer with the performance of DD12/15 should become available at £1000. I find the Velodyne subs a bit too expensive (especially in Sweden), and that is really the main reason why I'm looking for alternatives.
So, something comparable to DD12/15 at half the price *wishful thinking*...


rhino2k said:
just a side note, i was getting the SVS PB12 but as i cant get it for a while im going to get a Sunfire D8, ordered it today :cool:

maybe the sunfire d12 or a pair of them could be what you need?
 

KenX

Standard Member
But aren't Sunfire subs just older versions of the Velodyne DD/HGS subs?
I thought Sunfire/Bob Carver and Velodyne joined forces a couple of years ago.

rhino2k said:
how about one of THESE?
or the next model down HERE i believe they are ment to be awesome :cool:

obviously they arent cheap though, if size was not an issue one of the big svs subs would probably be the best bang for buck choice!
 

Steve.EX

Novice Member
I was always under the impression (having heard one several years ago now) that the Sunfire approach was always based the 'other method' of attempting infrasound. Rather than use large drivers/enclosures/natty software/servo etc they opted for the small enclosure/sheer brute force and huge driver excursion approach.
A testiment to engineering perhaps but it wouldn't be my first choice
 

KenX

Standard Member
Of course, I have yet to hear something that beats the subs from Linn, i.e. Melodik and Artikulat 345.
They are outside my price range though, unless I manage to find a used one, but they are rare. I guess their owners become addicted to them...
 

Similar threads

Trending threads

Top Bottom