Recent experience cast doubt in my mind re EVs

Discussion in 'EV Electric Cars Forum' started by Stuart Wright, Sep 5, 2017.

  1. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
    AVForums Founder Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Messages:
    14,741
    Products Owned:
    7
    Products Wanted:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Ratings:
    +10,630
    Last week we decided to go on an impromptu weekend in Boulogne.
    As an exercise in anticipation of not owning an ICE car, I looked at the feasibility of using our Ioniq EV (arriving this month) to do the journey.
    420 miles down to Dover and then Calais to Boulogne plus return journey and driving while there means a total of about 600 miles.
    Planning charging in the UK using zap-map is not too bad. But planning charging in France? Nightmare. Made me think twice about relying totally on an EV. Maybe when we replace our last ICE car, we should get a hybrid instead?
    So I looked at the cost of Diesel in France (it's expensive) before deciding to fill up in the UK. With 570 miles range in the Audi, we set off and only had to fill up on the return journey after joining the M40 northbound.
    It really hit home how the infrastructure for range-axiety-free EV ownership is a long way off.
    That little trip was very much a one-off, though. The last time we drove to France was 8 years ago.
    Maybe hiring a car would be the better option.
    Still it deflated my pro-EV bubble a little.
     
  2. IronGiant

    IronGiant
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    64,095
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    .
    Ratings:
    +43,407
    Why worry about a trip you only do once in a decade (or thereabouts)? Hang on to the other ICE for a bit longer, by the time you need to change it the EV market and infrastructure may well have changed out of all recognition. No regrets here. (but our second car is a diesel).
     
  3. mjn

    mjn
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2001
    Messages:
    23,228
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Herts, England
    Ratings:
    +11,480
    Diesel in France is about the same price as the UK with the current exchange rate.
     
  4. LV426

    LV426
    Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    13,575
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Somewhere in South Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +6,095
    I reckon that for myself and a large proportion of the rest of us, the occasions we travel beyond the useful range of a present-day EV (never mind future models with greater ranges) are a tiny proportion of what we do. And yes, the infrastructure will change. And yes, I reckon the answer to such otherwise odd events is to rent something different on the odd occasion we need to.
     
  5. AMc

    AMc
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2000
    Messages:
    7,283
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Near Norwich
    Ratings:
    +3,984
    FWIW I've just done 2500 miles in France in August (all petrol). There were a number of charging points at supermarkets and they seemed pretty plentiful on the toll road services. I didn't notice many on the national routes. I imagine a long run would definitely be a planned exercise. Obiously I don't know how they work or how you get access.

    We stayed at various Chambre D'Hote and Gites, given the layouts I think you'd struggle to get power to the car overnight. The hotel stops used public parking so again you'd be relying on the availability of charging in multistories which wasn't that visible.

    My experience with petrol was the price was MUCH more variable than in the UK and generally more expensive.
    I saw regular 95 petrol at over 1.55E on the autoroute, the best I paid was 1.25E at a supermarket
    That according to Visa without exchange fees is a £1.15-£1.42 - so similar to UK supermarket at the bottom end but not at the top!

    Diesel was fractionally cheaper but 98 which I used to use on long road trips was viciously expensive.

    As above - if I were to do this kind of thing and had an EV I'd probably just hire something ICE for 3 weeks. We tend to do one big road trip holiday every other year so not worth balancing all the other daily needs against this, any more than I would drive a transit because every 3 years I go to IKEA for furniture.
     
  6. LV426

    LV426
    Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    13,575
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Somewhere in South Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +6,095
    Now that IS an excellent analogy.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    • List
  7. IanW1977

    IanW1977
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2002
    Messages:
    4,577
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    West Midlands
    Ratings:
    +484
    Agree there.
    Worrying about 1 trip in 8 years over thousands of local errand type runs is not logical.

    I'm still stressing over my EV not having a range of over 90 miles but then the only time I have done 90 miles plus in 1 sitting was probably in 2013.
    The longest trip I've done in 4 years was picking up the EV from 120 miles away and I did a quick charge halfway down to coincide with food stop.
     
  8. McPhee

    McPhee
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2006
    Messages:
    1,921
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings:
    +221
    Plugshare and Open Charge Map both serve the continent as well as the UK. It's worth having at least one alongside Zap Map.

    You can order a Corri Door pass here:

    Accueil - SODETREL

    That's your trip pretty much sorted.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017
  9. Urien Rheged

    Urien Rheged
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2005
    Messages:
    6,655
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +863
    I have a Leaf and Nissan will loan you a ICE car for free for long journeys (if your worried about using your Nissan EV) [emoji108]
     
  10. SourKraut

    SourKraut
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,944
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Wonderful Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +401
    They will lend you an ICE for two weeks within any year, for three years...I used that once and drove a Juke :cool:
     
  11. GadgetObsessed

    GadgetObsessed
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    2,397
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    116
    Ratings:
    +1,102
    Interesting post. I do wonder whether the infrastructure will improve faster than the range of electric cars. Suppose in a few years time electric cars have a similar range to diesel e.g. 550 to 600 miles. Would that reduce the demand for public access chargers so much that providing public chargers uneconomical for private companies?
     
  12. outoftheknow

    outoftheknow
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Messages:
    3,699
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    At some point the range (stored power required) will exceed what you can deliver on a domestic connection anyway. If there are no upgrades to domestic power supplies, the need for high power public chargers will become huge. Public charging will become more important as range and powers increase IMO so you can charge your 500 mile mile car in a time that fits the point of a car journey away from home.
     
  13. gangzoom

    gangzoom
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,801
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings:
    +1,007
    In what way?

    Virtually every household can run a 7KW 32amp supply overnight, assume 8pm to 8am charging thats 80kWh+ of energy been delivered, which even at 3 miles per kWh is 240 miles of range. Very few people drive 240 miles every day.

    I plug our car in every night regardless of charge status/range, i simply set the charge limit to 80% knowing I'll wake up with 150 miles or range everyday. Ive yet to run the battery charge of our current EV below 50% on anyone day. For longer trips ill charge to 100% but that rarely happens.

    Unlike a petrol car where for time reasons it makes sense to wait till you have used up all the fuel to refuel, with home charging fo an EV plugin takes 10 seconds, so why would you wait till you have 0% charge before plugin?

    If we had loads of easy access 7KW points to allow people to charge their cars to 90% overnight and if that meant 200 miles of range few people who need to use rapid chargers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  14. gangzoom

    gangzoom
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,801
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings:
    +1,007
    That kind of range isnt going to be coming to EVs for a few decades. Your talking about 150-200kWh battery packs for that kind of range, even Tesla doubt they can push pack size much beyond 100-120kWh using lithium ion tech.
     
  15. IronGiant

    IronGiant
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    64,095
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    .
    Ratings:
    +43,407

    Don't forget outoftheknow is in Australia, where 150miles is like a trip to the local shops :) His needs could well be very different from yours and mine.
     
  16. GadgetObsessed

    GadgetObsessed
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    2,397
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    116
    Ratings:
    +1,102
    I agree that with lithium ion such a range simply isnt feasable. So the question then is how long before someone comes up with a more effective replacement - a decade?

    Is the maximum home charging really only 7kw? That seems pretty low to me given that Tesla's can charge at up to 16.5kw. Does anyone here have a 16.5kw charger at home? (I assume that this means that you need to upgrade your power connection.)
     
  17. IronGiant

    IronGiant
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    64,095
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    .
    Ratings:
    +43,407
    Yes, that's the problem, if my sums are correct you'd need something like a 70A fuse for a 16.5kW charger and many houses only have a 60A main fuse. Even with a 100A supply you'd be pushing your luck I reckon.
     
  18. Desmo

    Desmo
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2001
    Messages:
    14,419
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Braintree, Essex.
    Ratings:
    +6,427
    You can put on approx 22miles per hour of charge on a home connection which is plenty enough to charge overnight, even from empty.
     
  19. GadgetObsessed

    GadgetObsessed
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    2,397
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    116
    Ratings:
    +1,102
    Yes, you would need a 72A supply given our 230V current.

    I assumed that if you were serious about getting a fast charger then you would upgrade your supply to have a second 100A connection. If it only costs about £2k or so to get a second supply that is what I would look at if I went for an EV.
     
  20. GadgetObsessed

    GadgetObsessed
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    2,397
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    116
    Ratings:
    +1,102
    As a Tesla Home charger can support up to 16.5k (51 miles of charge per hour) I would look at upgrading my supply to fully support it. Assuming that (a) I had a Tesla (b) the cost of a second supply wasnt too high e.g. was only around £2k.

    It does seem likely that in the future that faster home chargers would become more common. With a separate 100A supply you could go up to 23kw theoretically.
     
  21. LV426

    LV426
    Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    13,575
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Somewhere in South Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +6,095
    This is the point that so many seem to miss: in normal circumstances you charge your EV overnight at home regardless of its charge state. That means
    (a) TIME: aside from the time taken to plug and unplug, it kind of takes zero minutes to charge; by which I mean - you were only going to be watching TV or sleeping (etc) anyway. It's done in parallel with other activity so it doesn't consume time. Thus there is no real need for substantially faster charging; if you typically have, say, 12 hours of downtime every overnight, then you have enough time to gain say 80 kwh every night; assuming you used that much in the preceding day
    (b) POWER SUPPLY: overnight, the grid already has huge amounts of spare capacity for a fairly prolonged period from something like 7pm till 7am, and particularly 11 - 6.
     
  22. gangzoom

    gangzoom
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,801
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings:
    +1,007
    There is already higher density battery tech in labs all over the world, but going from the lab to mass production is decades. Lithium ion was first feasible back in the 1980s, but even now mass production of cells is still expensive.

    As for home charging, you simply don't need a faster charger rate than 7KW. We are lucky our house has a 3 phase electricity supply, so intheory upto 22KW is possible. But in reality I charge our Tesla 90% of the time using a 3 pin plug (2KW)!!! Simply becuase most days I only drive 30-50 miles and 10hrs at 2KW gives me more than enough charge.
     
  23. IronGiant

    IronGiant
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    64,095
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    .
    Ratings:
    +43,407
    I'd qualify that by saying most people don't. Or, just like needing to do a 500mile road trip, need it so rarely it's not worth having more. Certainly not if it means digging the front garden up to lay a dedicated new main.
     
  24. outoftheknow

    outoftheknow
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Messages:
    3,699
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    That was the point that was made and I was agreeing with. All posts referred to home and other charging being fine for current range and power. The point was hypothetical that using current tech a range double what it is now would need long times or massive current chargers. Public chargers have to improve and home charging would struggle without upgrading.

    The next tech or the one after is maybe ultra capacitors. Poor power density at the moment but some kinds have unlimited charge cycles and charging is about as fast as you can deliver it (near enough). Power then is all you need and time will not be a factor. Longer usable ranges for all.

    Upgrading to a second supply at home is why I said the next step in power and range isn’t feasible for home charging without upgrading. Or you make sure you have 14-24 hours to charge before you head off. If a few add the second supply a new sub station will be required which all electricity users pay for. Not the EV owners.

    The charging infrastructure costs are borne by EV owners or one manufacturer (at the moment) or commercial entities who get their costs back from owners. Whatever happens with powers I don’t think that model should change.
     
  25. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2006
    Messages:
    2,121
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    116
    Location:
    Sutton in Ashfield
    Ratings:
    +554
    I have a 100amp main fuse, and charge 2 EVs at 7Kw overnight on Economy 7. Also the Dishwasher and Washer dryer are on timers to come on at Eco7 times, so a lot of nights we draw over 80amps off peak.

    Had no problems and on thats on 1930s wiring in a prewar house. (Chargers are wired staight back to a modern consumer unit of course).

    7kw is the max my i3 will take (Unless on a rapid charger) my other car could take a lot more if we had 3 phase supply fitted to the house) But that would be expensive and also I dont think its possible to get cheap eco7 power on 3 phase
     
  26. Desmo

    Desmo
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2001
    Messages:
    14,419
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Braintree, Essex.
    Ratings:
    +6,427
    Unless you’re using up max range/charge almost every day you still wouldn’t be needing 14-24 hours to charge up.

    At home you’re constantly trickle charging the car and keeping it topped up around 80-90% capacity. If you want a full charge, another few hours would take you to the max, even on a super large battery as you’d only be topping up that last few percent.
     
  27. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2006
    Messages:
    2,121
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    116
    Location:
    Sutton in Ashfield
    Ratings:
    +554
    Personally Think 7kw is fine for almost all home users,

    My i3 is a 19kwh Usable battery and fully charges in just over 3 hours at home from empty. gives 100 miles range I just charge it full every night at home and rapid when out and about on long trips

    My Zoe is a 41kwh Usable battery and fully charges in 7 hours at home from empy. Gives 180-200 miles range Again I charge that overnight and its always full and ready the next day.

    I use rapid charges when on long runs (I do nottigham to london 3 days a week).

    Even a 60kw battery would fully charge on 7kw overnight. Lets face it lots of Tesla owners with 60 80 90 100kwh batteries are happy with the charge they get at home on 7kw chargers.

    I dont often get home with a totaly empty battery so its normally 20% to 100% for me.
     
  28. gangzoom

    gangzoom
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,801
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings:
    +1,007
    Even though I can charge Tesla at 7KW via a commando socket just outside the garage I perfer to park the car inside the garage and charge off a 3 pin socket.

    Did 70 miles yesterday in rain/wind, will be going out later today (10-11ish) on a 100 mile round trip. Even with charging at 2KW range is no issue at all. I will eventually get around to fitting a 7KW socket in the garage but simply haven't felt the need to since we moved into the new house, and I've done about 8000 EV miles in the last 6 months - with virutally all the charging done at 2KW!!.

    [​IMG]
     
  29. gangzoom

    gangzoom
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,801
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings:
    +1,007
    @outoftheknow The key difference between refueling an EV at home and refueling a petrol car is with the EV you can top up everynight/day without adding any more inconvenience to your routine.

    All the time your car is parked on the drive can be used to charge/top up the charge rate to 80-90%.

    The situation your talking about, needing to add 60-70kWh in a few hours at home simply doesn't apply to most people (in the UK anyways).

    I charge my Tesla from a normal UK domestic plug most of the time. I've covered more miles in the Tesla in the last 6 months than alot of UK drivers do in a year. I cannot remeber a single time when I wished for faster home charging.

    The fact I do have 7KW charging at home, and already have a 3 phase eletrical supply (so can get 22KW for a one off charge of about £500 for a new meter and x2 main fuses fitted), but still mainly charge at 2KW shows you how unimportant home charging rate is, even when you have an EV with a 70kWh+ battery pack.
     
  30. sraper

    sraper
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    806
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Watford, UK
    Ratings:
    +257
    I live in a house with 3 phase and economy 7[emoji106] Dont have an electric car yet!
     

Share This Page

Loading...
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice