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Rear projection/ Plasma/ LCD ?

Discussion in 'General TV Discussions Forum' started by villaceltic, Jul 13, 2003.

  1. villaceltic

    villaceltic
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    Happened to be in Comet of all places today and they had a SONY
    KF-42SX200 42" nicam stereo drc lcd projection widescreen tv on display. Amazingly 'the wife' said 'oh that's quite nice" and "it doesn't seem so deep as the Philips 32" we've got ".

    It appears therefore that I may be on to something here and that a rear projector style screen may be a possibility to compliment the H Cinema set-up. I however know absolutely zip when it comes to Plasma, rear projection or LCD displays so am looking for any general or specific info. A projector and screen has been ruled "out of the question" so what is the next best? What is the best of the next best? And finally where is the best place to get one of these from? Bare in mind that she really seemed to like the Sony! (and it was about 2 and a half to 3 grand)

    May thanks in anticipation

    Macca
     
  2. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    I'd leave LCD well alone. It has the ability to match plasma/RPTV (and in my own view - surpass by a long way) for picture quality but the cost:screen size ratios just don't add up when you're in the market for 42" of screen size at the moment.

    I've never been impressed by Plasma displays - even the highest end ones - but the 'experts' tend to love them at their best. Budget plasma is something you should steer well clear of - it's simply awful. For a quality plasma you're looking at around £3500+ for a 42" screen, maybe a fair bit less for a 32".

    RPTV seems to be the best compromise. Descent 42" sets are available for the friendlier side of £1000, and will outperform plasmas costing twice the amount (and when you consider it costs more than this for a descent 17inch LCD it sort of puts LCD out of the running). However - they don't all look as nice as the sony, and whilst they look room-friendly on the shop floor, they do take up a fair amount of room space.

    Do a search on the forums for ideal models and brand names. I'd recommend Sony or Toshiba for RPTV, Panasonic for LCD, and Philips or Panasonic or Pioneer for Plasma.
     
  3. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    Oh and as a side note - DONT (WHATEVER YOU DO), buy ANY of these from Comet unless you're willing to pay out those anti-wallet fees for "Accidental Breakdown Cover". I worked there and I wouldn't buy from them- just me maybe, but it speaks for itself.
     
  4. lynx

    lynx
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    There were some 'work arounds' discussed recently whereby you could exploit a discount if you bought the warranty - the discounts were fairly substantial and off the product rather than the warranty - then cancel the warranty once you get home.Do a search and you'll get the gist.
     
  5. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    From my experience Lynx Comet tend to do things the other way round...

    i.e. buy the TV with commission-heavy Video Interconnects and you get the Warranty for free...

    If you can get it the other way round then go for it.
     
  6. lynx

    lynx
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    I believe it's against consumer law to discount a warranty therefore negotiate, say a £500 warranty on a plasma display on the strength of a large discount off the display price then -exercise your right to cancel the warranty while keeping the discount on the goods. Some guys that replied to a thread on this had secured some serious discounts doing this and iirc Currys was the retailer involved.

    Edit :- http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=82531
     
  7. andya

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    hitachi 400e £2500 cant go wrong no flicker good blacks good price and 42 inches
     
  8. alexs2

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    From what I saw before buying a 50" Toshiba RPTV,the cheaper plasmas just didnt have the same brightness,colour balance and contrast,hence I went for the RPTV,which has been excellent so far.
    The old RPTV problems of narrow viewing angle and convergence seem well under control,and I'm a happy viewer!
     
  9. LV426

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    True, for a direct view LCD at present. However the TV in question is an LCD RPTV where price/size is similar to other technologies but with the 'advantage' of it being an LCD rather than three cathode ray tubes.
     
  10. bobones

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    The American avsforum.com has some interesting threads on LCD v CRT v DLP rear projection, and it seems they regard LCD as the poor relation with CRT the best in terms of pure picture quality.
     
  11. LV426

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    Indeed, and I can understand why.

    However, there are many factors that determine picture 'quality' and any observer that states, without qualification, that one is 'better' than another is not giving the full story. ALL technologies have some shortcomings - including CRT (which, one might argue, has more inherent shortcomings than anything else). Which is 'better' depends on which shortcoming annoys you least.

    I have just recently replaced the last CRT device in my home with an LCD device........ This decision was driven by my own views about what is 'best'. I have no expectation that everyone else in the world will agree with my choices.
     
  12. villaceltic

    villaceltic
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    Nigel,

    does this mean that there is an element of 'best of both worlds' in that the sony is indeed an LCD RPTV? Is the 'advantage' of the LCD on this (as you put it), tongue in cheek or a perceived advantage to those who favour LCD? Ultimately I am looking for a larger screen than my current 32" CRT which will compliment my home cinema set-up, give a clear sharp picture and allow the rest of the family to enjoy normal TV viewing as well. Does such a thing exist?

    Macca
     
  13. nathan_silly

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    Here's (my opinion) of the pros/cons of the two types of RP (LCD/CRT)

    LCD Pros
    Single lens, quick & easy to focus
    No screenburn

    LCD Cons
    Bulb, expensive to replace
    Heat- fan required; therefore noisy
    Poor black levels
    Suscepible to dust
    LCD pixel death
    LCD heat soak (effects LCD RP's as well?)
    Poor colour reproduction

    CRT Pros
    Good black level
    Good colour reproduction
    Quiet

    CRT Cons
    Three tubes (focus)
    Convergeing the R & B to the G is necessary
    Screenburn with logos etc

    Probably more.. just the above top of my head.
     
  14. LV426

    LV426
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    Things I like about LCD RPTVs compared to three-tube CRTs:

    1: Convergence should be spot-on and stay that way (no coloured fringes around objects esp in the corners

    2: Perfect stability - no bouncing around as the brightness changes

    3: No visible scan lines

    4: No refresh rate flickering.

    Otherwise, see Nathan's post. (Which, I suspect, may be slightly biased).

    Really, you can only decide which suits you best by looking for yourself. Much of what Nathan says is true of some LCD or another, but it is rarely the case that an LCD will suffer from any of the issues he raises. Pixel death, for example, is very very rare in use. They can be DOA, which is why any LCD purchaser should have their unit checked before buying. The majority of sets have no such issues, however.

    Inside the Sony Grand Wegas, there is something very similar to a VPL-VW11HT projector - a highly-regarded (in its time) device with better than average contrast levels and a very fine (3 million) pixel matrix.
     
  15. Shadow_Zero

    Shadow_Zero
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    I've tried to find out, but am not sure about a lot of things yet.

    Could anyone explain the difference between a CRT RPTV and a LCD RPTV?
    What resolutions is a CRT RPTV capable of, or does it use scanlines like a CRT TV?
    And is a LCD RPTV a lot more expensive than a CRT RPTV?

    And are there any differences between a LCD monitor and a LCD tv?
     
  16. LV426

    LV426
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    CRT RPTV: Three small monochrome cathode ray tubes, each displaying one of the 3 primary colours. Each is driven at very high brightness. On the front of each - a coloured filter and a lens which throws the image onto the back of the screen via a mirror.

    The major issue with these is keeping the three images in the same place on the screen. If they aren't, you get colour fringes around objects (convergence errors). And they drift out of alignment during use, needing frequent 'tweaking' to keep them right.

    Plus regular CRT issues - image size changing with brightness, visible scanline structure (unless the set has a line doubler) and flickering regresh rate (unless it has 100hz processing), inaccurate geometry. Etc.

    LCD RPTV: Three small LCD panels mounted around a prism. Each one displays one of the primary colours. Each accompanied by a colour filter. Illuminated by a very bright lamp. The three streams of light coming through the LCDs are merged optically using a prism to produce a single stream of light which is then thrown by a single lens onto the mirror and screen.

    The alignment of the 3 LCDs is fixed around the prism. So long as it is manufactured accurately, the three colours will always fall in the correct place on the screen. No convergence errors. No geometry flaws. No refresh rate flicker (LCDs don't ever flicker). No change to the size of the image with brightness. And no visible scanline structure.

    BUT: You may see the LCD structure (chicken wire) - unlikely on the Sony which has 3 million pixels. You may have bad pixels (unlikely to occur during use but may be DOA). LCDs may smear fast moving objects because some can't react quickly enough to changes in the image. Again, not likely to be an issue with the Sony mentioned.

    Other than that, there are subjective differences in image 'quality' which you can only judge by looking.

    CRT RPTVs and regular direct view CRTs both use scanlines in more or less the same way. Both can be improved with 100hz processing and/or line-doubling if the set you buy has these features.

    Prices of LCD RPTVs vs CRT RPTVs - LCD have a tendency to be more expensive but you can find this out for yourself.

    The difference between an LCD monitor (as you might buy for a PC) and an LCD TV is that the latter will have a tuner (plus AV inputs etc) and a scaler (to convert the TV signal into a pixel matrix) whereas the former won't. In other words, you can't simply buy, say, a freeview box and plug it into a PC monitor because a PC monitor has no way to convert video into pixels.
     
  17. Shadow_Zero

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    Thanks a lot for this info.

    So, does a CRT monitor use a line doubler too? Since the image isn't interlaced (or is that something different again?).

    I checked some pricings, can I say that a CRT RPTV is the cheapest of the big screens and that Plasma and LCD RPTV's are about in the same price class?

    And then LCD tv's/monitors are the most expensive as big screens, although the monitors don't have really big sizes yet (but they do support a higher resolution most of the times I think).
    Does a Plasmascreen also have a scaler which converts TV signals into a pixel matrix?

    How do they indicate if the set has a line doubler in the tech specs? Cause I've never read it before (or is that the HD 1080i?).
     
  18. LV426

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    A CRT monitor (for a PC) doesn't need a line doubler because the signal is not in a scanline structure (as with TV). A PC's video card generates a pixel map and the monitor just displays whatever the PC throws at it.

    For TV use, all pixel-based technologies (LCD, Plasma, and LCD, DLP projection) all have to have a scaler to convert the line structure of a TV signal into a pixel map for display.

    As for how line doubling is quoted in specs (for CRTs) - varies by manufacturer. For example, Sony call it DRC-MF.
     
  19. Shadow_Zero

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    I wasn't even aware of DLP projection tv's!
    Reading about it now at http://www.projectorcentral.com/

    Could you say that DLP's are kinda the HD's under the projection tv's?
    And how do they relate in price class to the other projection tv's and plasma's?


    What would you consider the best option to display Flash animations on from a PC?
     
  20. LV426

    LV426
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    DLP RPTVs are a new thing. I think only LG is currently marketing one. They are priced comparably with equivalent sized CRT RPs (perhaps a little more) and the have the DLP rainbow effect there in all it's glory.

    Re: Displaying Flash animations - what size screen?
     
  21. Shadow_Zero

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    Probably normal resolutions I think.
    So like 800x600 and-or 1024x768
     
  22. rauer

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    Another technology soon available: LCoS RPTV

    LCoS stands for liquid crystal on silicon, where the light is reflected from instead of 'shining through' the LCD chip.

    Philips is bringing these with very high resolutions. See http://www.cineos.philips.com/
     
  23. twarde

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    Perhaps Gordon @ convergent could calibrate one of these RP TV's to give an excellent picture?

    Could be a bargain, even with Gordons fee.
     

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