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RDXS32 - Editing Chapter start and end

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by nunew33, Jun 22, 2004.

  1. nunew33

    nunew33
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    After being victim to the frame difference between VR and video mode I am now setting chapter points with edit mode set to GOP. However the edit screen still advances frame by frame and allows you to divide at any point. The only way I can see to check is to preview which gives you the first and last few seconds of the chapter.

    Ive been very lucky and the first 25 chapters are ok but the 26th chapter is about 5 frames out at the start.

    So this leads me to ask 2 questions.
    1) Am I doing something wrong in that surely if im using GOP mode then I shouldbe advancing 1/2 a second at a time rather than a frame
    2) If I have inserted at the wrong point is there any easy way to move the chapter forward or back or do I have to merge chapters again and then redivide?
     
  2. Matthew Attoe

    Matthew Attoe
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    I noticed this problem too, so at the moment I edit out advert breaks on a frame accurate basis, then just dub straight to dvd-r / dvd-rw.

    If a workaround is discovered to allow for accurate chapter marking, then i'll start going down that route.

    But at least you're not the only one having this problem :)

    Matthew
     
  3. Rindless

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    Is the edit seamless?
     
  4. nunew33

    nunew33
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    Appears so. The problem I get is the difference between VR and video mode. It just means that when i select a chapter point in VR mode its frame perfect in Video mode it goes to the nearest I-frame which can be up to 10 frames in either direction. This isnt abig issue for mid title chapters but is an issue when cutting bits out as you might get the odd frame from the cut.

    I was hoping that using GOP mode would mean that it would advance in frame groups but this isnt the case. The only benefit of this mode is that the preview shows you how your chapter point will look in Video mode. Its a shame that you cant shift the chapter point back or forward to quickly correct erroneous chapter points
     
  5. GoldFish

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    I too would welcome the chapter point shift facility, my workaround is re-combine the two chapters and use the accurate time mark (labeled as location under chapter editing menu) to re-do the chapter divide. If anybody found out an easier way please let us know.
     
  6. Normandy16

    Normandy16
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    I had this problem too - among others to be published later...
    You need to refer to page 93, "editing chapter break" and need to follow the instructions to the letter. In GOP mode it does indeed shift the chapter by 10 or more frames. Prat trap #1 is that you don't see the counter change - toggle back and forth between chapters to see that it has really moved.
    This is much worse when doing it in Frame mode as the changes are not easily seen [especially when moving the chapter within a fade to black.]

    Wy it doesn't do this when inserting the chapters in the first place I don't know.

    I do not get seamless edits - it alwasy pauses for half a second or so - I find this annoying - is it normal?

    Long upward haul ahead but in general it is indeed the dogs proverbials.
    Detailed prob/niggle list to come someday soon

    Best of luck

    P
     
  7. nunew33

    nunew33
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    So Normandy, what you are saying is :rtfm: . And I cant believe I missed that. I must have read that page about 10 times last week and completely missed the word "Adjust". This has simplified things no end. One niggle removed!
     
  8. GoldFish

    GoldFish
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    It works..... Thanks for the tip Normandy16.

    Like nunew33, I have read that page many times but missed that part. :blush: :blush: :blush:

    The edit points seemed to be seamless to me when play back from the HDD. will try to burn this to RW and have a closer look later.
     
  9. Normandy16

    Normandy16
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    I wouldn't be so rude - - as I've been there myself!

    P
     
  10. Alanji

    Alanji
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    Very useful help on editing. I have another query. Does anyone knkow how to get the date of recording to show when (or after) transferring via firewire from camera to HDD.
    I can set my camera to show the date for 6 seconds when starting playback and when the date changes, but this does not show on the recording on the Tosh, using firewire. It does show if I make the recording using phono connection, but I would obviously rather use firewire.
     
  11. Normandy16

    Normandy16
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    I still can not get this beast to do what I call a seamless edit, there is always a half second freeze frame before it carries on. :mad:

    Can you guys try this please...

    Take a short sequence - title1, with some movement - cars going along a road is ideal.
    Make chapter point during it; move the chapter one notch [in video/GOP mode] to the nearest "correct" MPEG edit point, and save.
    Make a copy of this edited sequence by dubbing to the HD - call it title2- whatever. They are now identical titles with a chap break at the same point.

    Make a play list with Chap1 from title 1 and chap2 from title 2. This should be seamless - ie no loss.
    Play the playlist - do you get a freeze at the edit point. - I do!
    Now dub the playlist to the HDD to make a new original - I still get a freeze
    Dub it to a RAM disc - STILL I get freeze.
    There is no excuse for this, I can accept that it would have a problem playing a Playlist, as it may have to search the disc for the next bit, but when you dub, it should be able to join them seamlessly as it does not have to be done in real time.
    I even tried dubbing to RAM with Rate conversion - no change.

    Annoyingly there are no lost frames, [slow mo it to prove this] it just freezes on one for 0.5 - 0.75 of a second.
    Any thoughts?

    I will be interested to hear any results.

    cheers

    P
     
  12. GoldFish

    GoldFish
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    An interesting point. I must admit have not tried your method to check if the editing point is seamless, thus far I have only burnt three disks with various cuts and all seemed to be both accurate and seamless (guess I might have been lucky :zonked: ). Can I ask at what bit rate that you are carring out your editing? Just wonder if the freezes/pauses problem is connected to the bit rate setting. For your info, I did all mine with the bit rate setting at 2.6 (to fill 3.5 hours of old VHS/HI8 footage to a disk :D Greedy, I know).

    Will have a play at you method this evening and let you know the outcome

    Tan
     
  13. Normandy16

    Normandy16
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    Hmm - good point - I was doing it nearly at full rate [8.8] in order to make 1hr and 2 mins of home video fit to one disk.
    It could well be that a lower rate would improve things.
    More experiments needed I feel..... :confused:

    I look forward to seeing how you get on

    :thumbsup:

    Cheers

    P
     
  14. GoldFish

    GoldFish
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    Tests for seamless editing ?

    As promised I have conducted a few quick tests last night when I got home from work.

    First I marked out a chapter of about a minute long from the recorded show of channel4's ‘COUNTDOWN' with the big clock showing the seconds counting up from 2 sec to 30 sec.

    Then I copied this chapter with high speed dubbing to make it as an original title and named it TEST-A. Played back the newly created title TEST-A and at the point when the clock was showing at approx. 15 sec, I paused the play back and used the chapter marker to divide this title into 2 chapters which I call them A1 and A2.

    I then once again use high speed dubbing to make a copy of the title TEST-A (now consists of two chapters) to a new title which I named it TEST-B and also the two chapters within it as B1 and B2.

    I then created a play list as follows :
    A1 -> B2 -> B1 -> A2

    So if everything happen as it should in an ideal world, the joining points from A1 to B2 , B2 to B1and B1 to A2 should be seamless, sadly I must admit I did detect the momentary pause (less than half of a sec) at the edited points from A1 to B1 and from B1 to A2. However, I was surprised to find that the joint from B2 to B1 was seamless !! :confused: Could it be that the joints from starting point and end point of a title are ok but not the starting point and ending points of a chapter? Will have to spend more time to have a closer look as why this was happening later. ( I ran out of time as It was mine night-out with the lads and I did not like to miss it)

    Just for reference, all editing were carried out on HDD and with bit rate setting at 2.6. I did not alter or move the chapter mark with GOP.
    So Just to confirm to Normandy16 that you are not seeing things, it might be that the tests you and I have carried out so far revealed somehow the limitation of the machine. I would welcome comments and feedbacks from DVD recorder owners, either Tosh or any other brands, to try this test and see if their machine would produce the seamless joints.

    p.s. for those who might be wondering, COUNTDOWN is a day time game show on CH4 hosted by Richard Whiteley and Carol Vorderman. I'm not much good at the game but do like to watch Carol on solving the matchs problems... honest :D
     
  15. Normandy16

    Normandy16
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    Goldfish - you're a star!
    It's not the right result of course but it proves I'm not seeing things.
    I'm currently doing tests with bit rate changes - will publish soon.

    I also would like to know if other machines do this, ie is it an MPEG2 limitation or just Tosh being lazy.

    I guess in reality I expected too much, after all this is really DVD Authoring - not Editing.

    Thanks

    P
     
  16. jdarushall

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    I may be barking up the wrong tree but...

    When using my old JVC and editing on a PC (DVD Author) a marked chapter point was written to the disc as a new chapter with a "layer break!".

    It was the software that was adding the layer breaks as on playback in the JVC the picture had a slight pause between chapters.

    The way to check is to use IFOedit on a PC and look at the layout of the disc.

    Of course this would account for a slight pause if the DVD recorder is marking the chapter points with a layer break flag.

    I think it is very unlikey but just a thought!!!!!!
     
  17. nunew33

    nunew33
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    Did the test with some tennis tonight. reason i hadnt notoiced it before is that all my chapers have been on scene changes so any hint of a pause would have been at a natural break. Another test ive just tought of is Create a1 a2 and a3 from a title
    create a new title from a1,a3 and a2

    Then revert to a1,a2 a3 and see what happens
     
  18. nunew33

    nunew33
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    just tried taking a title splitting it then dubbing it to end up with a1,a2,b1 and b2

    spliced it to a1b2 abd b1a2

    got the pause in both then playlist/dubbed back to a1a2 b1b2. Pause now there with origimnal scenes. Problem not compounded though.

    Definately in VOB mode as when I frame adjusted the chapter point moved significantly within a 5 second title.

    Have looked back on home movies that I have burnt so far and cant see any pauses at the joins (ie where I removed poor footage). Think thi is luck and easily hidden in a scene change rather than doing anything different
     
  19. nunew33

    nunew33
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    After playing around discovered its in the manual in black and white:
    P89 Notes:
    The boundary of the title with unnecessary part deleted and titles (Playlist) having different parts cannot be played back seamlessly (without break).

    So it looks like any discontinuous segments will always produce a pause
     
  20. GoldFish

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    :rtfm:

    Thanks nunew33

    Tosh has covered their back very well...

    I echo your previous post is that ALL my home recording I edited so far have no noticeable joining points, perhaps luck as you put it or the video pausing/freezing problem is masked by the scene change.

    Further quick tests I tried last night and found out that this video pausing did not show up if the editing were done within the single title !! and since I dump all my home movies onto the HDD as one big title and then carried out the editing, might be that's the reason why I did not have any problem on joining points. Need to do more tests to confirm…. There might be hope yet
     
  21. nunew33

    nunew33
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    Hmm thats covered by unnecssary part deleted which i didnt try last night but this woul dbe harder to test as you arent joining a continuous sequence. I did try the take a title, chapter it, dubb it. I then dubbed one to 1st chapter only and the other to 2nd chapter only (ie 2 tiles 1 chapter each) to see if title joins were same as chapter joins. they were.
     
  22. Normandy16

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    Well guys, I think you've just about covered it - thanks for all the effort. :thumbsup:
    Something that we have to live with I reckon.

    As it happens most of my serious editing is done on the Pc and then spewed out [in < 2GB chunks due to the avi file limit] for assembly [authoring]
    Previously, in the land of VCR, I tended to put a fade to black at the end of each session and a fade up at the start because of this limitation, guess I just have to carry on doing the same.
    Ho hum!

    Cheers

    P
     
  23. nunew33

    nunew33
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    someone has said this is a limitation of mpeg rather than the tosh?

    Is this the case. If it is then its a major :( and ought tobe fed back to toshiba.
     
  24. jdarushall

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    May have got a bit lost in this thread but I'm assuming(!!!) that normal chapter markers don't give a pause, its when you join two parts together?

    What about this...

    Record 1 hour prgramme
    Cut out commercials
    Dub to DVD

    What happends???
     
  25. GoldFish

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    Done that and I did not notice any glitches at the joining points, the change of scene or the static picture at the advert breaks somehow masks/hides this problem. It is the continuous clips that will bring you to notice this shortcoming from the machine.
     

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