1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

R1 or R2 For Quality?

Discussion in 'Movie Forum' started by nikyzf, Aug 25, 2004.

  1. nikyzf

    nikyzf
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Ignoring content and price differences, which is better for viewing on a PAL TV (which can also handle NTSC), R1 or R2? Will R2 give inherently better PQ as it is PAL? Will the same hold true if/when I get a large plasma/LCD? I'm thinking that 576 lines must be better than 480, or am I getting this all wrong?

    I was about to buy Sonic Youth 'Corporate Ghost' R2 when I saw that I can get the R1 version cheaper.

    TIA
     
  2. Shockabuku

    Shockabuku
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,796
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    Ratings:
    +159
    Given two identical DVDs, other than one's PAL & the other is NTSC, I'd go PAL due to the extra resolution. BUT....there are loads of other factors, not least of which is the resolution of your display device, PAL speedup yadda yadda. Here's a good site that describes the differences... http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/Articles/PALvsNTSC/PALvsNTSC.asp
     
  3. Daneel

    Daneel
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2002
    Messages:
    2,822
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +26
    All else being equal, I go for PAL rather than NTSC.
     
  4. nikyzf

    nikyzf
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thx guys. That's what I suspected. Will check out that URL...
     
  5. LV426

    LV426
    Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    12,819
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Somewhere in South Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +5,027
    All else is rarely equal. And the theoretical difference between PAL and NTSC does not, in reality, always translate to a better disc, regardless of the display being used. In practice, the differences are pretty well insignificant and are offset (one way or the other) by other differences.

    If your Plasma is one of those low-res (848x480) devices, then I'd contend NTSC will produce a better image as the device won't have to re-scale the horizontal line structure. Ignore this comment if it isn't.
     
  6. Daneel

    Daneel
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2002
    Messages:
    2,822
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +26
    I agree with all of that Nigel but thought I'd simply answer the question he asked.
     
  7. soulbrother

    soulbrother
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    ive got a denon 2900 dvd player also a Panasonic 36PD30 .the t.v can take a prog/scan image from the dvd which outputs ntsc and pal prog ,the PQ on both is exellent.
     
  8. NinjaKi11a

    NinjaKi11a
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2003
    Messages:
    314
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Ratings:
    +0
    Great article. Now I understand why image pans 'judder' on my set up. Shame I have to use NTSC as I can't play PAL progressive. If I could, I'd certainly have prefered PAL.
     
  9. LV426

    LV426
    Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    12,819
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Somewhere in South Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +5,027
    The don't have to; if your scaler (external or built-in) has 3:2 pulldown detection working correctly, pans on NTSC are just as smooth and even as on PAL.
     
  10. wookie

    wookie
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I would go with the PAL disks rather than the NEVER.THE.SAME.COLOUR NTSC option :laugh:
     
  11. LV426

    LV426
    Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    12,819
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Somewhere in South Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +5,027
    Except that this humorous acronym is only true in respect of Broadcast NTSC signals. It is glitches in the radio transmission of NTSC (such as might arise from co-channel interference, multipath reflections etc) that cause colour shifts. On a directly-wired source-to-display (as with a DVD) this artefact does not arise.
     
  12. NinjaKi11a

    NinjaKi11a
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2003
    Messages:
    314
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Ratings:
    +0
    Nigel, what's a scaler and what is 3:2 pulldown? I get a beautiful picture from my system (see below), but I don't get a totally smooth pan (most people fixable?). If you could help me rectify this though, I would be most grateful!

    Cheers
     
  13. LV426

    LV426
    Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    12,819
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Somewhere in South Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +5,027
    3:2 pulldown is a term used to describe an artefact of the way in which a film (which was originally shot for display on a cinema projector) of 24 frames per second (fps) is converted to NTSC video (eg from a DVD) which runs at 30 frames per second.

    It's done by repeating every 4th frame. So, if the frames are numbered 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 etc, the sequence on an NTSC signal display is

    1 2 3 4 4 5 6 7 8 8 etc - in other words, in groups of 2 (eg 1 2) and 3 (eg 3 4 4). Hence the term.

    So, every sequence of 4 film frames is converted to 5 video frames. There are 6 such sequences every second, which gives 24fps (=4 x 6) converted to 30fps (= 5 x 6).

    The stuttered movement arises because of the additional frame, every fifth of a second, which is identical to the one before it.

    NTSC DVDs of films don't actually contain these extra frames; they are put there by the player to make the output conform to the required 30fps for NTSC video.

    Put simply, a scaler is either an external device, or is built in to a progressive scan DVD player and/or a digital (eg LCD, Plasma, DLP) display which can (inter alia) detect this sequence and remove the additional frames. Whether you can use an external scaler depends on the compatibility of your display with the resulting non-standard signal structure. Most TV's can't.

    Digital displays which have onboard scalers, by neccesity, are capable of displaying their scaler's output.
     
  14. NinjaKi11a

    NinjaKi11a
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2003
    Messages:
    314
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Ratings:
    +0
    Gotcha thanks. So, am I right in assuming a 565 doesn't have a built in scaler?
     
  15. nikyzf

    nikyzf
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks for that great explanation. I knew what the idea was, but not the precise method. So simple!

    As an aside, I've noticed the following:-
    PAL: 576 lines x 25 frames/s = 14,400 lines/s
    NTSC: 480 lines x 30 frames/s = 14,400 lines/s
    So, the "total information" per sec is the same. Is this a coincidence or intentional, to make conversion easier? :)
     
  16. LV426

    LV426
    Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    12,819
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Somewhere in South Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +5,027
    nikyzf I doubt that it makes conversion any easier. And I doubt it was at the forefront of the TV engineers' minds back in 194? (??) when NTSC was invented, or 196?? when PAL came along.

    SansSouci Based on web specs, your Pioneer 565 has NTSC progressive scan. Therefore it performs one of the functions (the important one in this case) of a scaler. Your TV is Progressive enabled for NTSC only. So, set your DVD player up to output Progressive Scan for NTSC, and get yourself a set of component cables. Check the TV manual to see if you need to do anything special to get it to recognise Progressive NTSC. Do this, and I suspect you will see an improvement in image quality and, more importantly, an end to juddery pans on NTSC material.
     
  17. FlimsyFeet

    FlimsyFeet
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2003
    Messages:
    91
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +1
    It's not quite that bad. If you consider the refresh rate of an NTSC display is 60Hz (actually 59.94Hz), the sequence is:
    1 1 2 2 2 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 6 6 6 etc.
     
  18. drummerjohn

    drummerjohn
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2001
    Messages:
    2,469
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Southampton
    Ratings:
    +188
    I have a mixture of PAL & NTSC and the difference is easily noticeable.

    Having spent years on my HTPC & projector setup I have found PAL to be the better format for DVD for these reasons:

    PAL has higher resolution
    If your display runs at 50 or 100hz you should get judder free motion from film stock and original PAL material.
    NTSC - invariably suffers from judder. The technology is there to stop this from happening. Unfortunatley, if a disc is poorly mastered it means the technology doesnt know what to make of the disc.
    NTSC - Audio is true - no speed up.
    PAL - film stock suffers from 4% speed on PAL. This can be fixed - LOTR2 I think was fudged (synthesised) to make the audio true, but I can hear the fudging (sorry - "fudge" covers a multitude of things in my book).
     
  19. NinjaKi11a

    NinjaKi11a
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2003
    Messages:
    314
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Ratings:
    +0
    I do already have it set up for ntsc prog scan through component cables and I still get judder. Not with all movies: The Fast and the Furious I don't, but Master and Commander I do. The picture quality is vastly better in prog scan, but I can't find any other option that might affect the image.
     
  20. LV426

    LV426
    Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    12,819
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Somewhere in South Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +5,027
    It may be that the film is intentionally like this. Although I've seen M&C at a cinema I don't remember it specifically. However it is definitely the case that the fight scenes near the start of Gladiator have a jerky "feel" to them. Intentional on the part of the director. Shot at a high shutter speed in the camera to create the effect.
     
  21. Rob.Screene

    Rob.Screene
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2001
    Messages:
    1,124
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Berks, England
    Ratings:
    +45
    I think the concidence was that both systems then had similar bandwidth requirements.

    NTSC *films* are encoded as 24fps (24/1.001 actually)=
    NTSC film: 480 lines x 23.976 frames/s = 11,508.5 lines/s as the frames are both lower resolution and not speeded up compared to PAL.

    If both the NTSC film and PAL films were on a single layer DVD-5 disc, the NTSC one would require 25.125% less compression, although this is a moot point if the PAL release is dual-layer DVD-9.

    Lately I have preferred the PAL releases as they seem to suffer less edge enhancement that makes them look sharper on small TV's, but have some ringing on the side of sharp lines large displays.

    regards,
    Rob.
     
  22. docjan_uk

    docjan_uk
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2004
    Messages:
    82
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    So I would assume a player like the DVD 1910 outputting at 720p would be doing 3:2 pulldown on any PAL material and then sending to an LCD at 60 hz... if not I guess the TV can be set to do 3:2 pulldown on such material?

    :confused:.
     
  23. LV426

    LV426
    Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    12,819
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Somewhere in South Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +5,027
    3:2 pulldown is related to the refresh rate of the output video signal. In other wiords, an artefact of a conversion from 24fps film to 30 fps NTSC video. I don't know whether 720p is bound to be 60hz or not; I suspect it could be either 50hz or 60hz. If true, then no frame rate conversion would be needed for PAL sources.
     
  24. drummerjohn

    drummerjohn
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2001
    Messages:
    2,469
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Southampton
    Ratings:
    +188
    720p can be 50hz or 60hz.

    I run my PAL material at 720p\50hz on my projector and as a result have perfect juder free playback.

    For my NTSC material I have to change the refresh rate of my HTPC that feeds my projector from 50hz to 60hz.
     
  25. JetJockey

    JetJockey
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi Nigel.

    Very interesting stuff. Heres a quick one!

    I have an Arcam DV79 which outputs prog scan PAL or NTSC depending on the source disc (Picture is superb through component). I am feeding it into a Panny PWD5 Plasma (standard res) which offers in one of it's menus 3:2 pulldown for NTSC material (I think). existing pans seem smooth but should I be using this Plasma 3:2 pulldown option? will it improve the picture in any way?

    P.S. Hi Daneel, how is the Parasound running?

    Cheers, Gerald. :)
     
  26. LV426

    LV426
    Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    12,819
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Somewhere in South Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +5,027
    I suspect (but don't know for sure) that the 3:2 pulldown detection will be occurring inside the DVD player, in which case changing the TV settings will have no useful effect. The TV may well produce better (judder free) results from other - interlaced - source types (eg SVideo, Composite Video) with this feature.
     
  27. Mr.D

    Mr.D
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    11,064
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,150
    A couple of things.

    Most ( I'd actually say all but as I can't claim to have looked at every disc going...)NTSC discs are not 24fps they are mastered from 3:2 pulldowned interlaced 525/60 versions of the films. If they do their job properly they will detect the 3:2 sequence , flag the pulldowned fields and they will not be encoded twice. However the reasons for doing this are from the perspective of saving space on the disc not about accurately maintaining a 24fps structure. So from the point of view of generating a 24fps progressive sequence the flagging is never 100% reliable (although it can be if its done properly but its a secondary effect and consideration)

    The other thing to bear in mind is that the deinterlace stage happens after the Mpeg2 decoder so intrinsically the deinterlacer is always dealing with a 60 fields per second sequence even if the flagging is set correctly enough to give a 24fps sequence just by following the flags. DVD isn't designed primarily to be a progressive format.

    So thats the bad news.

    The good news is that its quite easy to detect a 3:2 sequence (even easier to detect a 2:2 sequence with PAL) and as long as it doesn't change throughout the movie (bad edits , layer change) or even if it does and the deinterlacer is smart enough to detect it (some are some aren't and will drop back to a video type deinterlace if they can't work out the cadence: field order , this is usually a bob). I actually wish they would give us manual cadence setting you could adjust on the fly.

    The juddery effect on certain films (Gladiator ,Saving Private Ryan , Black Hawk Down) is caused by shooting with a smaller than normal shutter angle (motion film cameras do not adjust exposure by varying shutter speed , the shutter in a film camera is a spinning disc with a variable open section, the size of this opening is adjustable in degrees and motion picture exposure is described in terms of shutter angle and lens aperture rather than shutter speed and aperture as in a stills camera. The net result of shooting with a small shutter angle ( smaller than 120) is the capture of a single frame in a smaller period of time and a subsequent lack of motionblur on any action in the frame. The lack of motionblur gives the appearance of jerky motion but it is not a change in frame rate.

    Resolution is only part of what makes up an image another important consideration is the intesity range of the master ( call it contrast). In my experience the telecined masters used for region1 discs are often superior with regard to the discernable intensity range transferred from the original film image. This is essentially what a telecine artist tries to do , replicate as much of the useful intensity range from the original neg , albeit with reference to print colourspace into the video master . They have to sacrifice parts of the intensity range to get it to "fit" into video colourspace. The less visibly they compromise the intensity scale the better the master , if you regard a good master as trying to replicate a good show print.
     
  28. Mr.D

    Mr.D
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    11,064
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,150
  29. Rimmer

    Rimmer
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    That is incorrect.

    NTSC DVD movies exhibit judder even on a progressive scan DVD player/television set-up because NTSC runs at 60Hz: 60 fields per second for interlaced; 60 frames per second for progressive (really 59.94 frames). While NTSC movies may be stored at 24 (really 23.98) frames per second, the output is always 60 fields/60 frames per second. So you still get an uneven frame succession in progressive NTSC: 11 222 33 444 55 666 etc, rather than the smooth 11 22 33 44 55 66 we get in progressive PAL (albeit with the annoying side-effect of the 4% speed-up).

    Progressive scan on NTSC certainly improves picture quality on film content, because in interlaced NTSC two out of every five video frames are made up of different film frames, as expertly explained in this article. In progressive NTSC 60 full film frames are shown, so there are no interleaving errors, but there is still judder.
     
  30. Mr.D

    Mr.D
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    11,064
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,150
    If you have a deinterlacer that can succesfully perform a true inverse telecine on NTSC disc you can reconstruct the 24fps sequence. If you then display this in multiples of 24 (ie 72) you will get playback that is free of judders.

    NTSC discs are rarely stored as progressive 24fps although they may be stored in such a way that it is comparatively easy to reconstruct the original 24fps.
     

Share This Page

Loading...