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+r/rw or -r/rw

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by mulder, Sep 27, 2003.

  1. mulder

    mulder
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    I had made my mind up a couple of weeks ago and was ready to fork out for the Phillips dvdr75(£363 rgb direct) for it's i-link amongst other things but after reading this and other forums I have done a full circle and have ended up in favour of the -r/rw format as it has been pointed out by rasczak and other members that this format is more compatible than orignally thought. The Phillips DVD+recorders look very unreliable so unless i can afford an extended warranty it's hardly worth it. My exsisting DVD player is compatible with the -r/rw format as well. I do want a -r/rw recorder with i-link so does anyone have any ideas on a reliable DVD-r/rw recorder with such a function?
     
  2. Rasczak

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    Delay a purchase by one month and you'll have a choice of the JVC (DVD-RAM/-RW/-R) or the Pioneer 3100 (DVD-RW/-R). If you are willing to stretch the budget a Sony GX7 (DVD-RW/-R/+RW) is a good, but expensive, choice and available now. I advise waiting.
     
  3. dude1971

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    Or the Panasonic E60, which is what I'm saving up for. I was in exactly the same boat as you, these forums have swayed me completely!
     
  4. davee b

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    i'm the same. i was "definitely" going to get a philips dvdr75, but now after the thumbs down for this (and the antics of philips with the pixel plus sets), i'm going for the panny E60 especially as its now cheaper than the 75 anyway. :D
     
  5. primitive

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    Good old Rasczak he really must be doing wonders for Panasonics profits! But don'e believe all you read +R/RW is a good format and the apparent unreliability has been over egged. It all depends what features you want/need.

    Always remember the The Panny rewritable format (RAM) is not compatible with standard DVD players (except a few of the new Panasonic models) and if you record to DVD-R in compatible mode (which means you can play it in other DVD players) then you can't edit.

    If you only want to keep recordings for yourself and play them on your recorder,and want superior editing then get the Panny models. But if you want the ability to share your recordings and have basic editing then DVD+ really is the only route. (or a Panny with a HDD, lots more money)

    Also remember that if you buy a Panasonic without the hard drive then the only way to record a programme, edit out the adverts and make a compatible disc is by using a PC. (record to RAM on panasonic, copy to PC and edit, then burn a DVD Compatible DVD-R on your PC).

    You can do it all in one go on a Philips machine because you are able to edit both the DVD+R and +RW disc on the machine and they will play in the majority of DVD players. (ignore the stats which Rasczak will quote in reality both + and - formats will work with the majority of DVD players) RAM won't play on anything other than a RAM machine.

    Good luck with your choice.
     
  6. malcom

    malcom
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    Same old primitive ramble about compatibility. Just not worth replying too......The Panny machines are miles ahead of anything the + format has to offer. Don't be put off by Primitive or you may well regret it.......

    I had the same dilema 18 months ago and was close to opting for the + format. I thank my lucky stars that I saw sense in the end and have as a result had 18 months of recording heaven from the Panny format. Yes.....I have also produced hundreds of Compatible recording. What does Primitive think the -R side of the machine is for!!! Frying eggs.......
     
  7. PhilipL

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    Hi

    The problems with the Philips machines have not been "over egged" at all. Even the biased +RW/+R forum has these shocking statistics:

    Over 66% of units have been returned once or more for repair.

    Over 25% of units have been returned more than once.

    In another poll 22% said they wished they had never bought a Philips recorder.


    These polls do not take into account those that voted they were originally happy, but then had problems, as you can only vote once.

    http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=4;t=6587
    http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=4;t=3901

    While your at it read all the negative comments at: http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=SF;f=4

    As they say, no smoke without fire. The fact that users have even set up the polls suggests there are major concerns. Will Primitive point us to similar polls for any DVD-RAM/DVD-RW/DVD-R based recorder?

    Regards

    Philip
     
  8. sub

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    I must admit, I'd pick the Pioneer or Sony or the Philips over Pansonics. I find the DVD-RAM thing is a big stumbling block for me.

    I currently burn everything to rewriteable media (DVD+RW), and it plays without problem in of my friends and family's machines. Maybe I've just been lucky and managed to stay ahead of the '4 out of 5' odds.

    With DVD-RAM i'd need to convince everyone to buy a DVD-RAM compatible player, or switch to blowing dollars on every recording.
     
  9. sub

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    I think that the Philips recorder have had a reliability problem or are less reliable than the competition, but you're kidding youself if you think the number are really anything like that.

    Philips have been making these machine for over two years now, and would have long since ditched the DVD recorder market if it had been that unsuccessful. Repairs and replacements would have cost 10's of millions. Heads would have rolled. Extra engineers would have been brought in to solve the problems...

    I just dont buy those numbers. People go looking for these sites to get help, so I believe you're less likely to find customers that have no problems.
     
  10. primitive

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    Now look this is not about taking my word, or for that matter anyone elses word for it. What this is about is facts. This whole forum is full of myths which are given without any real evidence.

    So lets stick to the facts.

    If you record on a DVD-R disc AND you want to edit the disc AND play it in other DVD Players THEN it can't be done.

    DVD RAM is the superior recording format BUT you can't play it on any other DVD player (bar a few Panasonics).

    DVD+R/RW can record AND edit AND play on other players.

    So here's real life. You record all the episodes of The Office onto a single RAM disc and edit out the gaps. Can you lend it to your mates to play on their DVD players?

    You record all episodes of the office to DVD-R in VR mode so you can edit out the gaps. Can you lend it to your mates to play on their DVD players?

    You record to DVD-R in video compatible mode so that you can lend it to your mates. Can you edit out the gaps?

    Do you want to have to decide in advance whether you will ever want to share your recordings?

    Now if you never want to share your DVD recordings with anyone else or play them in other DVD players, get a Panasonic E50 (etc) 'cos RAM is the superior editing format.

    BUT if you do want to do any of the above then the choice is simple (bar the use of a PC to edit and make discs compatible)
    Panasonic HS2/E100 (lots of money but the HDD is the best choice) OR a Philips DVD +R/RW recorder which can do all of the above functions. But definately not a DVD RAM /-R machine.

    Simple really isn't it. Both formats have their place simply choose the one which suits your needs.
     
  11. nwgarratt

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    I have a E50 and can edit DVD-R's. The adverts may not be able to get taken out as it is write once media but, you can tell the player to skip the adverts and write titles etc on the disc. It will even create 5 minute chapters and a menu.

    The Pansonic are not about 'lending discs', but about a high quality VCR replacement. I don't, and will never lend discs so the E50 is perfect for me.

    The philips may produce 'compatible' DVD Player discs but how long until it breaks down. As most + only recorders are based on Philips technology they don't looks good either.

    The only other one I would get would be a Sony.
     
  12. sub

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    I dont know about the 'VCR replacement' comment in relation to the panasonic. I suppose DVD-RAM is kind of like a Beta VCR. You can make great recordings, but no one else has a player that can play them.

    DVD-R/-RW/+R/+RW are more like VHS, with a good likelyhood that other will be able to play them.

    I also like the Sony. Still a bit too pricey though. I see Sony japan is bringing out DVD-RW/+RW/HDD recorder soon. Hopefully we'll also see them soon.
     
  13. primitive

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    nwgarratt

    Which mode are you recording your DVD-R's in? VR mode or Video mode?
     
  14. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    Agreed, the same applies to +R of course. +RW is less likely to work in a friends DVD Player as it has a lower compatibility.

    Agreed. Of course you can play it when/if they get their own DVD-RAM recorder.

    Just how do you edit a +R disc? Yes +RW you can divide and hide the adverts. Don't forget to make edits compatible, (if you dare as often it will corrupt the disc), as otherwise your divide and hide will not be anyway! Oh remember to set the right "bitsettings" as well!

    No, but then most never lend their VHS tapes out, it isn't about that. Which is why DVD-RAM is as big a seller as it is, as the majority of people do not this. One thing we can do, is re-use the space on that DVD-RAM and squeeze on another episode, a perfect use of the FR mode and random access.

    DVD-R is never recorded in the VR mode, it is always DVD Video compatible and will play in around 90%+ of players. How would you edit a write once disc anyway? If you mean record to a hard-drive first (i.e. an HS2) then yes you can edit and copy to DVD-R, but there is no choice to make on DVD-R, as that DVD-R will always be DVD Video compatible, VR mode is NEVER used on DVD-R. You do not really know what you are talking about do you?

    You cannot edit on a DVD-R or +R disc? Still my mates are intelligent enough to fast-forward over the ads or gaps!

    Sounds good to me, a good excuse not to lend stuff out and much less hassle. :) Of course you are assuming that friends and neighbours are never ever going to buy a DVD-RAM recorder themselves at some point.

    You can only pick the right one if you know what you are talking about ;)

    Of course no mention that +RW/+R set-top recorders are unreliable and bug ridden. Are prone to disc errors and are less than average with analogue footage due to no time base correctors or other input filtering. They do not yet come with hard-drives. They have no flexible recording mode, and take into account you can never actually delete anything, so for most people a +RW disc will contain lower quality recordings due to wasted space.

    There is no one perfect solution, if there were we wouldn't be having this conversation. However I would never recommend +RW/+R currently on a set-top recorder as it isn't reliable.

    Regards

    Philip
     
  15. nwgarratt

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    I have had my E50 for a couple of weeks now and don't regret it one bit.

    I think of it as a 'VCR replacement' as I have not used my VCR at all for recording since I got the E50. No one else could read my VHS tapes anyway, as I used LP a lot and they did not play properly.

    The unreliability of the Philips/other + recorders is a big problem and I don't want to wait fro it to break down.
     
  16. phelings

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    Primitive is talking rubbish.I have an HS2 which has a HDD so I do not use RAM-however,if you have a Panasonic recorder,editing is just as flexible on RAM as it is on HDD.The only downside is that you are restricted to 2 hours if you want to keep quality-but that is the same for all formats,bar HDD.You can record your 4 episodes of The Office,or even better,something with commercials,then edit out all you want,this gives the space back-+RW does not until the entire disc is erased.Once your disc is edited to perfection,you transfer to -R.
    On DVD+R,if you get a 90 minute film,you need to use the 2 hour level-this wastes 30 minutes of space.On DVD-R,FR gives you the option to use the entire disc,using maximum bit rate and improving quality.
    There is no doubt(check ALL the forums) that Philips recorders are unreliable to a point where the unreliability is the only thing you can rely on
     
  17. wellsi

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    I wouldn't say Primitive's talking rubbish; he's just pointing out restrictions that RAM / -R machines have. I have to agree that if you don't have a hard drive machine, editing is indeed limited on -R discs, being only able to remove programs recorded rather than segments of a programme.
    That said, as Razza states, wait a month for the JVC RAM / -RW / -R combo.

    How did we ever start off with DVD? When I first got my player, none of my mates had one; so I cuoldn't share anything!
     
  18. primitive

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    I'm not going to start another long debate, but phelings is talking rubbish. You can't copy from RAM to -R without a PC or a HDD in the recorder. The basic panasonics (E50, E60) can't do it.

    Also you can edit a DVD+R write once disc in that you can add, remove and hide chapters and are therefore able to hide the adverts. You can not do this on a DVD-R write once disk.

    As to reliability we will have to wait and see but the Philips DVDR70/75/80 would appear to be far more reliable than the DVDR880/980.
     
  19. Rasczak

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    Actually there are numerous ways to do it although the PC solution/HDD combo is the best. Using a DVD-RAM capable player (such as any new Panasonic, JVC, Toshiba, Samsung or, from mid-04, Thompson) machines will allow you to do it. Using a Digital Camcorder is another method. They've already been listed in this thread so I'm not going to repeat them all here again. Needless to say there are numerous ways to do it.

    Certainly if you want to archive something to keep you'll want the features that DVD-R machines offer - i.e. the flexible record, the high compatibility. I don't think there is much call for archivings with shoddy edits that don't give the best possible picture for the (extremely limited) size of the disks.

    The problems with the 880 didn't really start to surface immediately - they took several months before anyone realised that there was a problem - and several more before it we realised it was on such a vast scale. Given the amount of problems Philips have with their TVs, DVD recorders and VCRs I wouldn't categorise ANY product from them as faultless just yet.
     
  20. nwgarratt

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    You can on DVD-R with the Panasonic Recorders.
     
  21. primitive

    primitive
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    No you can't. Have you tried it.
     
  22. nwgarratt

    nwgarratt
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    Yes I have. It is also possible to erase programs but you don't get the space back obviously. You can 'hide adverts' so they don't play as well.
     
  23. primitive

    primitive
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    Maybe on your recorder but not on any other players. Have a go. You can erase whole programmes but you can't split or add chapter point's on DVD-R.
     
  24. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    Of course you fail to point out that this works the same on +R, in that only the recorder plays back with the added chapters or edits! Not all +RW/+R recorders allow this functionality anyway.

    Give the disc away to a friend or watch on your player, and they see it all and lose the chapters!

    Regards

    Philip
     
  25. bowler

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    If you copy from RAM on a dvd player to -R on a dvd recorder would you lose quality?
     
  26. nwgarratt

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    I was talking about my recorder - I did say Panasonic Recorders. It will also add chapters every 5 minutes on a -R.

    There would some loss as you are using scart to transfer the video and audio.
     
  27. malcom

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    The RAM/-R machines are and is the perfect replacement for a VCR. I have been using Panny machines for 18 months and have made what is now hundreds of "Compatible DVD-R discs" I certainly don't need the "Limiting" + format. Hype against the RAM format is giving some the perception that the + machines is the only format that will do the job they want. It is 99% just that, hype.

    You say no one can play RAM discs on their machines. !!!
    What about all those people who buy RAM recorders or new RAM compatible DVD players. Sales of RAM machines is healthy and so compatibilty is not "Zero" as you would suggest.

    Indeed those interested in quality home cinema will more likely have friends also interested in Home cinema that have most likely gone the Panny route.
     
  28. phelings

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    If I had no option but to lose my HS2 HDD and go back to a standalone dvd recorder,I would prefer the DVD+ format due to the compatibility of rewritable discs.Philips reliability would be a stumbling block.
    Ok,some players from certain manufacturers are enabling new models to play RAM.But the compatibility across every player available will still be closer to zero than 1%
     
  29. Rasczak

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    Which is why all along I've been saying if you want powerful editting go for DVD-RAM, if compatibility is an issue go for DVD-RW.

    Phelings - I think you'll agree - you went for an HS2 due to it's ability to make editted recordings, that fill the space on write-once disks. Yes? Now looking at the whole potential DVDR market there aren't THAT many people who want to go this route but those that do the only High Quality option is to get a HDD/DVDR combo (or a standalone with a PC burner). As most people don't want this a standalone is fine. There aren't that many people who will consider sub-standard 'edits' to be either an acceptable, or high quality, solution for making archivings.
     
  30. Rasczak

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    Actually compatibility is around 1% now. If you look at www.dvdrhelp.com/dvdplayers you'll see around 2900 players listed (which is near enough all of them). Now do a search for DVD-RAM compatible players and you'll get 29 hits - which, my basic maths skills tell me - is 1%. Only another 99% to go :D
     

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