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Question regarding HD DVD / Blu Ray in the UK

Discussion in 'TVs' started by Fluffy-Bunny, Sep 7, 2005.

  1. Fluffy-Bunny

    Fluffy-Bunny
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    I know there is a lot of talk at the moment on the upcoming HD sources due to be released next year.

    However one thing I have not read yet, is what video system the relevant formats will be using...

    Obviously at the moment the UK and Europe use 50Hz, and the rest of the world use 60Hz.
    Now I buy all my film DVDs in 60Hz (NTSC) as it preserves the original run time and audio speed.

    My question is, does anyone know what they plan for the UK regarding 50/60Hz video systems?

    Cheers.
     
  2. Welwynnick

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    The UK will continue to use PAL at 50Hz.
    The US will continue to use NTSC (ATSC) at 60Hz.
    etc, etc.

    The differences in resolution (625 vs 525 lines) have been resolved with the new HD standards, but there are many other differences, many related to how the colour and audio signals are modulated onto subcarriers for upconversion for broadcast.

    Good question, though, as many of the differences are negated by the use of the digital interfaces - colours or components and audio are separated out for the interfaces.


    Nick
     
  3. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    If you consider the rest of the world to be USA and Japan only. :eek:

    StooMonster
     
  4. chriszzzzzz

    chriszzzzzz
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    What does China use?? With the amount of customers they have I reckon they may be pretty influentual in the future... :eek:
     
  5. jon2099

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    China is 50Hz (PAL-D). See here. Countries using 60Hz are mainly in the American continent and a few in the Far East like Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Phillipines. The rest of the world is 50Hz :)
     
  6. Quickbeam

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    I would like to know the answer to your question myself. The truth is, until HD-DVD or Blu-ray movies hit the shelves, who knows what frame rate will be used?

    The UK will continue to use a 50Hz refresh rate for broadcast TV for backwards compatibility reasons - there is no question about that - but so far there is no evidence either way that next generation discs will be encoded exclusively at 25/50Hz. (There are actually a few 60Hz encoded region 2 SD-DVDs e.g. Sex & the City Season 1 R2).

    The EICTA HD Ready logo requires that both 50Hz and 60Hz refresh rates are supported in both 720p and 1080i. Since no 60Hz broadcasts are planned, this is presumably in anticipation of 60Hz compatible material becoming available from other sources, such as games consoles or possibly next generation DVDs.

    Anyway we'll find out the answer soon enough.
     
  7. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
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    European HD TV broadcasts will remain 50Hz - as the requirement to downconvert to 50Hz SD for existing outlets, VCRs, DVD Recorders etc. is still there.

    There is also the issue that although 50Hz film replay involves a speed-up, it removes the 3:2 pulldown issues - so 60Hz isn't always a desirable format.
     
  8. Fluffy-Bunny

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    Being a new format, why couldn't they priduce a 24P video system?
    Which could run at 48Hz, or maybe 96Hz?

    I certainly hope the UK gets 60Hz disks, im sick of PAL speed-up.
     
  9. jon2099

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    That's because region 2 includes Japan (I believe the only 60Hz region 2 country). There are other oddities as well e.g. many region 3 DVDs sold in and intended for South-East Asia (by the subtitles included) are 60Hz even though most of S.E. Asia is actually 50Hz.
     
  10. Quickbeam

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    For the record, Sex & the City Region 2 UK Edition is NTSC (or more accurately, 480i60).

    If HD movies were like SD-DVDs and only encoded at either 50Hz or 60Hz then I would agree 100% with the view that UK discs will be 50Hz, with the obligatory a 4% speed-up on film material.

    However, one of the rumours surrounding next gen discs is that they will be encoded not at 50 or 60Hz but at 1080p24, which means that if you are lucky enough to have a TV that accepts 1080p then it should be possible to display 24 frames per second without judder.

    Technically of course the problem is not the video playback speed (which could be controlled dynamically by the player) but the compressed audio tracks - changing the speed of compressed audio is no easy matter.

    Most of the information coming out about next gen discs regards copy protection. It would be useful to have some more detailed info on how the content will be formatted...
     
  11. jon2099

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    Quickbeam, thanks for the clarification, certainly the first 60Hz (or rather 59.94Hz) UK DVD I've come across.

    If the nextgen disks are indeed going to be encoded at its original 24fps, then that probably means the SD outputs would have to be at 480i60. If 576i50 (or even 1080i50) output is desired, applying pitch correction to the audio outputs is possible in real-time. There wouldn't be much point recompressing the audio again though (even though it can be done, e.g. Nvidia SoundStorm 2 chipsets can do real-time Dolby Digital compression) as the codec cascade would result in poorer quality audio.

    I know viewing an HD disk on an SD screen seems pointless but it maybe useful to view on a 2nd non-HD TV.
     
  12. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
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    The problem is compatibility - people buying HD gear may still want SD outputs as well. There isn't a 48i SD standard in widespread use.

    As for 60Hz - there are also lots of people who hate 3:2 pulldown - just as there are people who hate 4% speed-up.
     
  13. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
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    It is likely that European discs will be mastered 25fps rather than 24fps - just as video content will be 50i not 60i. They are likely to be mastered separately for audio and subtitle reasons - and may well share masters with HD transfers for 50i/50p broadcast.

    However 60i releases may also appear in Europe - as the HD Ready standard includes 60i HD compatibility.
     
  14. Jeff

    Jeff
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    There is likely to be a new region protection system, multi region playing could be a thing of the past.
     
  15. Rob20

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    Why don't modern tvs offer a 72hz mode for films!? If Uk tvs can show 60 and 50hz, then I see no reason why not. :confused:
     
  16. Liam @ Prog AV

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    I would much rather a bit of speed up than that bloody 3:2 judder.

    Rob - 72Hz is theoretically doable as a 3:2 down then 3:3 up for NTSC to remove the judder, but how would 50Hz PAL fit without causing a mess??
     
  17. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
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    Some projectors and plasmas do apparently offer 72Hz refresh for films in 60Hz regions. They reverse 3:2 pull-down 60i or 60p to derive a 24p sequence and then frame replicate to 72Hz. This simulates cinemas that triple-refresh.

    The PAL equivalent wouldn't require 3:2 pull-down, just 2:2 de-interlacing, and would then allow frame tripling to 75Hz. Some HTPC owners in 50Hz territories with 75Hz capable projectors do this for viewing film material.

    It must look horrid with 50Hz interlaced video sources though,as 50->75 conversion would be very unequal?
     
  18. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    hear hear!


    Still, 24p preferred over both options. With screens going progressive, it does seem a no brainer. I guess it'll be down to a wise Bluray player manufacturer to make it a feature.
     
  19. StooMonster

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    I certainly hope not, 3:2 motion jjuudddeeerr makes me sick of NTSC.

    StooMonster
     
  20. Lide

    Lide
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    Don't look so hard for it and you'll likely never notice it.
     
  21. Welwynnick

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    I think I would have to close my eyes.
    One of the nice things about really good film/video is smooth motion of convincing looking scenery in big-scene panning and zooming shots. It deceives you into thinking that you really are watching one solid object moving in front of another solid object. The sort of thing you simply never get to appreciate with ordinary TVs. FWIW I think interlacing and judder kill it dead.

    Nick
     
  22. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
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    Hmm - I don't look for it - but it screams at me. I can't help but notice it on moving camera shots, or movement within a scene.

    Some people are more sensitive to it than others I guess. Similar situation to DLP rainbows - which sadly I also see. Could be different people have different levels of persistence of vision I guess.

    I also see the double/triple exposure as 24Hz stuff is shown at 48/72Hz at the cinema on movement, and don't like it very much.
     
  23. Lide

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    I would guess you do look for it, whether you realize it or not, as you are that very technical type of person. :)
     

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