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Q150e Vs. CHT-10: Technical KO goes to...

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Speakers' started by juboy, Jan 7, 2003.

  1. juboy

    juboy
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    As some forum members may be aware, up until recently I had been using a Rel Q150e as the subwoofer in my system.

    Whilst I'd be the first to agree that this sub is very much at the entry level point to 'real' subwoofers, I genuinely felt that it performed well and integrated smoothly with the rest of my set-up.

    As people may also be aware, there has been a lot of critisism of the new(ish) Rel Q series within these forums... some from people who know nothing more than what they've read in magazines and some from people who's very existence depends on knowing good AV kit from bad - OK, that was maybe a little overstated, but you get the picture.

    Anyway, I had read with much interest and some, at times, quite heated debate the views of Uncle Eric regarding both the Q150 and the Velodyne CHT-10 subs that have been a huge success within the Power Buys area of the forum.

    It occured to me that defending the Rel's corner was all very well but I couldn't really speak with any true authority on the matter until I'd done a direct comparison. To this end, I ordered up a Velodyne from Uncle Eric about a week or so before Christmas with a view to spending the holidays putting the two subs head to head in what, for me at least, was the most important scenario of all... my living room.

    The 'winner' at the end of the holidays would stay put, the 'loser' would find a loving home somewhere else via eBay.

    Eric's service and supply of the Velo was faultless. Talk about bending over backwards to be of assistance, this guy should take up limbo dancing as a profession!

    So, with both subs run in, set-up with the aid of an SPL and some serious time spent tuning I went through my usual 'demo' type discs.

    Now, I had thought this fight was going to be a close one. I figured the two subs are pretty much equal in terms of position in the market and level of design. The truth of the matter is, to my ears, somewhat different.

    The Rel is small, granted. It's easy to locate and easy to tune. I do quite like the ease of their 'ABC' graded control knob system, especially when needing to turn the bass down a touch when listening to music through Sky Radio and then back up for DVDs.
    I also think the Rel is quite well made, although the grittex finish gives it a rather industrial look.

    Sound wise, I always thought it was good. It has punch and seemed to me to go quite deep, although I had previously noticed a tendency for it to 'rattle' when pushed just a little hard.
    This was noticeable and easy to repeat every time in one almost incidental scene in 'We Were Soldiers', when a helicopter takes off in front of the camera before it pans to resume the dialogue/main sequence of one of the chapters.

    The Velodyne, on the other hand, is quite large... maybe 75% larger than the Rel? Anyway, it's more noticeable in the room but it also looks nicer. The grille and badge look classy, the finish and construction is like it was made to withstand bombs and the port at the bottom looks great.

    The sound? Well, I now know what Eric means by 'mid-woofers'. I realised that where the Rel had sounded in your face and very 'present', the Velodyne is almost like a huge sleeping giant, the snores and occasional belches aren't audibly over the top but the rumbles and deep bass that you feel are like BT started digging up the road... from under your house!

    The true sub bass from the Velo sounds more tuneful, seems to disperse round the room better and underpins the overall soundstage in a much more convincing manner than the Rel can manage. The bass is also less fatiguing over extended periods of listening. I guess it just sounds and feels more natural and less forced.

    This post has gone on way too long already but suffice to say that eBay just debited my account for the money I owed them for selling the Rel.

    Many thanks again to Eric and I hope that this post is helpful to anyone looking to spend up to £500 or so on a sub, you know what you have to do:

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41254 ;)
     
  2. cybersoga

    cybersoga
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    Interesting, might upgrade some day but I really havn't got the room for anything bigger! still, that was one way of advertising the fact your rel is now on ebay without blatantly posting the link ;)
     
  3. juboy

    juboy
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    You think I'd risk the wrath of the hardware classified mods? Noooo way, it was sold within one day using Buy It Now. I guess that's one area the Rel excels, re-sale values are great ;)
     
  4. Ryan

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    Good to hear you joined the CHT-10 club.
    For the price it is a sensational bit of kit. It blends in beautifully with my eggs.
     
  5. uncle eric

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    Just want to say a big thank you back to Julian here. Its not easy to put ones trust into someone you've never met. Julian stuck his neck out and trusted my word. I feel proud to have not let him down. Going back to the CHT-10, I have always felt this to be pound for pound unbeatable. As Julian has testified, not only is it better than subs like the Q150 by a good margin, its over a £100 cheaper. This is why I've backed the product and this great brand. Across all price ranges, and after 20 years, Velodyne are still showing the way. Hope you have many happy years with the Velo Julian and well done also for your great work for the NSPCC over christmas.
     
  6. Desticado

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    now you've got me wondering how a cht-15 would compare against my Strata III...
     
  7. uncle eric

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    Don't know about a Strata III but Phil replaced two Storms with a single CHT-15
     
  8. Desticado

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    Really just pondering to be honest.

    The Strata III definitely doesnt leave me thinking im missing out on anything.

    I'll probably be buying a PJ before i change me speakers anymore.
     
  9. Phil Hinton

    Phil Hinton
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    Yes i did, and still dont feel the urge to add another, cos it does what it says on the tin. Although a HGs might have me thinking otherwise, when my bank balance looks a little more healthy.................................................................................................................................No ! I dont need an HGS I dont need a HGS:rolleyes: :D
     
  10. uncle eric

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  11. Ian J

    Ian J
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    I'm sure those that have met Eric will smile at the thought :)
     
  12. Matt Horne

    Matt Horne
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    Well I am saving (slowly but surely)... cannot decide yet which to go for.. the Gallo for its size or the Velodyne for its price (though its a bit larger).

    Though both would do a great job for me I am sure !

    Due to the fact its has to go in the living room size is unfortunatley a factor.. Once I have the dosh I will be after a demo :)

    Matt
     
  13. robe

    robe
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    You seem to have concentrated on the effect with movies - do you (or anyone else) have any comments on how the two compared when listening to music?

    Rob
     
  14. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    It realy is no difference, what is required for movies is the same for music (low distortion etc etc). You may well notice it more with movies as the LFE goes lower etc but a good movie sub is also a good music sub. If someone tells you otherwise, well question what they say.
     
  15. MuFu

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    I would question that by arguing that transient response characteristics are usually highlighted significantly more (overall) by musical passages than by movie LFE.

    Sure, it is essentially the same set of parameters that count in determining the overall quality of a sub, but I don't believe that the notion of certain subs being particularly good for music is an invalid one. Some subs have the speed without the depth...

    MuFu.
     
  16. Spligsey

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    Right...that's it..........I'm dumping my HGS-18 in the skip...

    Adzman
     
  17. MuFu

    MuFu
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    Was that a retort of some kind?

    :confused:

    MuFu.
     
  18. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    I think several things are getting confused here.

    There is NO such thing a speedier subs. If someone tells you otherwise, well they are just incorrect. I am sorry but there is no other way to say it. The speed of sound in air at 20 degrees is a constant. Speed of a sub is a myth. There is loads on this site on this already by me and Eric / Boris.

    This depth / slam thing I think is misleading. Some 'lesser' subs extole the virtues of their slam setting for music (as opposed to depth for films). If we translate that they mean we can keep the high distortion levels down to a managable level by limiting the ultimate extension. It is actually quite a good thing as distortion in subs is a killer (oftem 50%) but this is NOT well designed sub. A well designed sub should always keep distortion below 10% at the give frequency / level you want to run the sub at. The depth setting 'trades' distortion for ultimate extension (IMHO not a good thing). Personally I prefer subs that do low distortion and don't try and compete at 20 Hz (old REL Qs etc).

    I am not quite sure what you mean here. All I am arguing was there was MUCH more low freq on DVDs (films) compared with CDs (music). DVD regularly have SIGNIFICANT 20 hz and occasionally down to 5 Hz content. This is common. CD rarely have much below 40hz, particularly if they are acoustic in nature. Subs for music generally work in the 30 to 80 Hz range.

    It is all down to engineering, the same parameters as you say are used for both 'markets'. I agree some subs are better at music but this is SIMPLY because they are not MAN ENOUGH to deal with more taxing demands.

    Re the other way around, no, speed is irrelevant and incorrect, try swamped by distortions as a far better description why things appear slow and muddy.
     
  19. Spligsey

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    I am basically trying to say what Nic has said, but in a much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much watered down version.....

    Nic's is a great post.



    Adzman
     
  20. MuFu

    MuFu
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    Indeed. :D

    I just re-read my comments. I didn't mean to write "Works the other way too", sorry - that makes no sense, given the following sentence. :rolleyes:

    So the transient response of a sub is irrelevant, Nic (?!). I know that's not what you're trying to say and I think we are in agreement, although looking at it from slightly different perspectives.

    People are far more sensitive to tonal characteristics than functions of accuracy in relation to time, but that doesn't make distortion utterly relevent and "speed" (I am sorry I used that word now!) a non-issue. Perhaps at very high levels. Otherwise, why all the fuss about air-spring/damping effects and Qtc? Unless you mean distortion in the time domain, of course (surely not?).

    I know you are far more knowledgeable than I when it comes to such things, but saying "what is required for movies is the same for music" is simply not true, IMO. You even go on to explain why yourself - general differences in the component frequency distribution. In terms of sub-suitability, the discrepancies are far more pronounced at the lower-end of the price spectrum, but that fact doesn't discredit the overall argument. =\

    So I suppose I do currently believe it "works the other way too". Some subs tradeoff impulse characteristics for a greater extension.

    For a given budget, would you draft the same basic design (sealed, 4th order vented etc...) for a sub you knew was only going to be used for movies as you would for one that would only be used for music? Assume the stereo pair can accurately reproduce mid/mid-bass attack components for films explosions with sufficient SPL.

    MuFu.
     
  21. jhjerpe

    jhjerpe
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    Why do I always read these things a month after buying somehing :( .... I'll stick with My Rel Q200E as it was such a massive step up from my PSW1000! :)
     

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