Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by deman77, Sep 24, 2003.
Have you done any PW6 yet? If so, what were your impressions?
Did one on Saturday. Give me a sec and I'll try and post some stuff
don't forget the Lumagen results and iScan Ultra if tried. Also get the guy you did it for write a comment or two pls.
I was doing this on behalf of a dealer. I can say that there might be issues with the s-video input card (half size card) I think on this model. The client had a D6 installed as soon as it came out. He and the dealer noted strange brightness issues with it. So to be on the safe side the dealer brought around another unit to swap out the original. Both the original and this one exhibited same issue.
This issue was an inability to hold black level independant of picture level. ie If you ahd AVIA and set brightness using "needle pulses and steps", then put up the moving black bar pattern (on a black background" You'd find that the moving bars were suddenly invisible....and you'd have to ramp up the brightness tons. Which would make the moving bars in the high picture level look really washed out.
Also when fed the pluge pattern generated by DVD32R the darker bar only had the top inch or so visible with brightness at MAX.....
So we tried component feed in and that was fine. I should mention that this was the small s-video in board not a full width board.
The client also had a video processor installed at same time. It measured pretty much like a 5 series before calibration and really flat D65 after. Good result.
The video processing doesn't look that hot to me though with obvious posterisation and blockiness on the footy which was on during intitial testing. Used with the external video processor though it produced a very nice image indeed.
deman: I had not time to try the Lumagen I'm afraid. Only an HD-Leeza.
Have you ever ISF'd a NEC VP4?
No but I'm seeing a friend who has just purchased a series4 NEC and a processor. Hopefully doing that tomorrow or Friday.
Just a quick note - I will try and post further detail later. The improvement in moving to component, but more importantly by adding the Key Digital video processing was dramatic. I now think I have a fantastic picture (thanks Gordon) - I also learnt a lot on the day!! The picture still obviously varies on Sky depending on the quality of the chanel, however on most channels it is now very good. As Gordon said football, golf etc are much much better the grass now looks like grass! DVD picture quality is first rate
Thanks Andrew. I knew you read the forum but wasn't sure if you were a poster or not.
Interested to read about the issues with grass on Sky as I'd mentioned this on another thread .
I thought it may have had something to do with the quasi 100Hz thingy but maybe not .
What do you mean by an external video processor?
I'm feeding mine component video through the VGA input, is this something I'd be able to utilise?
I'd also noticed the problems with the S video card here (page 2) but I think mine's the full width one.
By video processor I think he means the HD-Leeza, which at about £3000 is alot of money
Just curious, have the reported issues with PAL on the KD HD Leeza been ironed out to satisfaction then ?
The grass doesn't look that bad!
PAL film source, 2:2 pulldown is being worked on. Currently cadence detection is over set (so MikeT believes). Video source is fine. Also the excellent analogue in, and out sections give benefits over the Panny just by themselves. The difference at Andy's was not subtle
i know you are not fond of them but try to be objective, do you think iScan will resolve any issues with PW6, and if so, which? you reckon it will help with banding?
Also, what Lumagen would be able to do that iScan can't? I guess it should have a superior downscaling to panny's internals plus upping refresh rate can knock out the quasi 100hz mode which people fear gives all the banding. But then again it does not deal with chroma bug which is my second biggest problem after banding.
The Lumagens have had chroma bug filter for about 6 weeks now. It was implimented in firmware update due to customer demands. They have also re-written code to get lipsync down by one more frame and are about to release a genlock'd firmware version to make image even more stable. ALL units in the field bought from authorised UK dealers can have these updates for FREE.
Lumagen is an Upscaler only. Not downscaler. I use it at 720P with SD panels. This actually gives a superior image to addressing the panel at 480P. I have done the dem, it's true. It is also how the designers of the scaler recommend you use it and how they show it. There are quite a few users on these boards who have found this little secret out by themselves. I did and was so surprised emailed them to ask if I was mad.....Im not incidentally.
I have not used an Iscan with a D6 so can't give a definative comment. I can say it will likely result in less de-interlacing artifacts.
I like the Lumagens as they give a detailed image, they have very accurate colour decoder, good detail in dark area's very good ir control of input, aspect etc. You can set different memories to auto load up dependant on incoming signal type, per input. You have also mentioned you can get it to do refresh at 59.94 for incoming 50Hz thus removing some more artifacts that many find annoying.
I did notice that PC input 1024*768 looked much better than 640*480 or 852*480.
now, do I understand correctly that Vision and Vision Pro are only different in appearance and inputs?
VisionPro has the LCD display, BNC input and outputs. Inputs are configureable. RS232 control and simple firmware updates through this port. It also comes with some RCAtoBNC leads and some S-video to BNC leads. Vision is lead less.
They should have identical picture quality although I have a dealer who uses a Pro on a Cine9. He can see a slight increase in quality with Pro over Vision but I doubt you'd see it on a plasma.
I'd be interested to know how you get on with the NEC. What sort of scaler is he using?
VisionPro: Lots of Component inputs you see. Will be seeing him Friday afternoon
Back on topic I should mention that the colour pallete of the D6 was very nice. Close to PAL and HDTV for red and green though a little undersaturated on blues. I liked it though!
I know you were working not playing when you calibrated Andrews set but did you have a chance to view any PAL sources at an increased refresh rate?
I know you said earlier that it should remove some artifacts that many find annoying but exactly what are these?
The HD-Leeza was set to do frame rate conversion and is running at 60Hz out from all sources. Looks good. Flicker
With my Brightview 720p looks better than at 480p into a Panny 6.
Is there anything anyone has tried that has reduced the posterisation problems (particularly with Sky) but which didn't cost more than the panel did in the first place
When contemplating shelling out this amount of money is HTPC another option?
Can it do the same thing as a HD-Leeza (or similar) or are they not really comparable?
Have you had a chance to collect your thoughts on your panel?
As promised a little while ago here is a bit more information on my experiences with my PW6.
When it first arrived I was slightly disappointed with the picture! It was good on DVD if a little bright, but IMO only average on SKY+. I upgraded from a 36 Sony CRT. It seemed like the image had too much energy, playing with contrast and brightness did not improve this. As Gordon has also stated there was also a banding issue on s video. This may sound crazy but after a week or so I thought the picture had improved a little, it seem less in your face may I just got used to it. However there were some noticeable issues, there was and issue with certain blocks of colour. The grass did not look real, lots of artefacts, the picture was not as sharp or stable as I would expect. The picture certainly did not blow me away. One small point though I was worried about black levels, however to me they are not bad at all. Obviously there were some advantages over the CRT size, geometry etc.
After a couple of weeks my dealer came with Gordon and a spare screen (just in case) to add the component board, a HD Leeza video processor and for Gordon to do the calibration. As I stated earlier this proved informative as well as making a massive difference to the picture. I am now sure that the picture is a marked improvement over my CRT, there are some issues still and I will cover these, but first the positives. The picture from both DVD and Sky has improved dramatically. Sky is the most noticeable, the issue with blocks of colour has gone, the image is much sharper, detail is vastly improved and the image looks more 3D. I now really notice the difference between the channels on sky and even silly things like a smear on the camera lens etc detail levels are very good. The move to component and the calibration improved brightness and contrast. I have not experimented yet between NTSC and PAL on DVD.
As mentioned there are some negatives, but as I have stated overall I am very happy and it is an improvement over my CRT. The negatives are: I notice a slight fast movement issue on football, I get used to it quickly but it is there. On the certain patterns an colours there is still a little noise at times, it is rare but it happens. I find the HD Leeza fan noise annoying I do not have it in a cabinet.
I would highly recommend that people consider having there plasma calibrated and the HD Leeza also made a very noticeable difference I am sure other video processors would also, but I have a high degree of trust in my dealer and he strongly recommended it. Overall I am a very happy customer.
I'm wondering if the lumagen vision pro will improve the picture in some of the ways you describe the HD Leeza, ie posterisation/banding.
I understand the Leeza is one of the best but I don't have space for a Leeza even if they were cheaper !
Enjoy your viewing.
Great to read your comments Andrew
Are you now inputting all video at 60Hz?
Most of my DVD collection is region 1 & since I've had my panel I've been avoiding region 2 releases so as to avoid any scaling issues.
What resolution do you feed your panel & is it the same for all sources?
Would you say you notice any difference between NTSC & PAL DVD's?
I noticed the issue with the grass mainly on Sky Sports during football but wasn't sure if it was just a case of poor broadcast signal, did you notice it on these channels as well?
Sorry for all the question but you did ask
O.k. guys, now you're scaring me !!!!!
I'm just about to take the plunge with a Panny 6 now that my RP is deceased, I will be using the s-video connection from my amp and am worried about the problems you mention at the start of the thread. Is the picture using s-video board really that bad, or is it something that only a pro would pick up on ? I'm aware of the benefits of component/PS dvd, etc. but will explore this later when and if funds permit. All I basically want is to set it up, plug in to my amp via s-vid & composite (Yammy DSP-A1, acts as switchbox from vid sources/Ld/DVD) and watch a reasonable picture. Is this possible ???!!!!
Also with ref to the ISF'ing, what sort of price is it to get a tech to set up the set properly ? Where would you get in contact with a company who does it ??
hope you can help,
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