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PV500: Wot i found

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by Gordon @ Convergent AV, Jul 28, 2005.

  1. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Just some quick notes on the PV500 I got to see at Mals.

    Mal tried to show me the auto contrast feature that many folk appear to be complaining about on the forums. I wasn’t able to really see it due to the light coming in to the room. Mal is re-decorating at present and there are no curtains to stop the light from outside so it was very bright in the room, making the black level bounce impossible to see with programme material. It did appear to be apparent with test patterns. In that if you set the black level with a 20ire pattern then went and displayed a 10ire pattern the black level appeared to be raised……I didn’t measure this though.

    Really the point of the visit was to measure how the set behaved in each mode and to work out whether it was possible to do greyscale calibration to make it more accurate.

    The first thing I did was measure the gamma curve on different settings and also the greyscale. Those graphs will follow. None are ideal. Cinema and Standard measure the same so I only show one graph. Those two are closest to correct but the deviation from being right may actually be due to the DVD player rather than the display….or it could be this auto contrast thing……The Auto and Dynamic modes I’m not a fan of…Dynamic especially as it really ups the light output, driving the panel hard and it has the horrible crushed white detail syndrome…. AUTO and DYNAMIC gamma curves below. Standard and Cinema don;t seem to have saved.....they were similar to AUTO but without the tailing off at top right (tailing off signifies crush/compressed bright detail.
     
  2. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    The normal temperature was used for all the measurements. This measured differently on different presets….ie there was more blue present on the normal temp settings dependant on whether you used DYNAMIC or CINEMA modes. You can see the original measurement in the CIE chart BEFORE. It shows the black triangle for PAL and the point just above the black line, designated D65, is where the measurements for black to white should be. The splodges down to the bottom left of that towards cyan/blue are where they did actually measure. As the colour we see is a mixture of a black and white image with colour stuck n top it’s important that the black and white image is displayed properly. In this case it isn’t. I re-calibrated the WARM temp in the plasma to the correct settings. The Normal and then correct graphs follow. In the Normal one you’ll see that there is far too much blue relative to green and not enough red. The left hand side of the image is the dark measurements and the right hand side the bright measurements. Ie 30ire to 100ire white windows.
     
  3. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Temperature....not actually that important. The one above is better at showing what is correct.....In the graphs above you want the RGB lines to be on top of each other.

    On this graph the ideal is the line being on top of the dotted 6500K line....but it's possible to achieve this with the RGB graph above looking wrong............but I thought I'd let you see it anyway.

    Gordon
     
  4. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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  5. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Once I’d sorted the greyscale I then went on to see about the colour side of things….Remember that to see the correct colour you need to mix the colours correctly then add that to the correct black and white. The CIE chart for this shows the actual measured RGB and cyan, yellow and magenta measurements for the PV500 at MALs. For it to be perfect for PAL all the measurements would land exactly on the black triangle. You can see that that Panasonics phosphors are bigger than the PAL standard. Many folk find this pleasing, even although it’s not accurate….and if it was accurate for PAL it would be wrong for NTSC and HDTV as they all have different specifications for the colour of RGB etc. If the colours within the gamut are to be mixed correctly then, with the Panasonic gamut you’d want the CMY points to be at the grey blobs I’ve drawn in. You can see I didn’t draw a yellow point as it’s correct. Cyan and Magenta are way too blue though. There are no colour decoder adjustments to deal with this in the plasma service menu. In the old Vierra’s and in the commercial panels there are colour decoder adjustments in the IIC menu. I was unable to find a way to access this menu on this panel. It’s one of the things I now need to look in to. The IIC menu is where I usually do adjustments as that menu system is specific to the signal going in rather than a global offset like SERVICE MENU 1 . The IIC menu would normally have overscan adjustments as well which would be useful as there was obvious overscan on the DVD input and free-view.
     
  6. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Mal was interested in finding out whether using prog scan out of his HKDV25 was going to give a better picture than sending interlaced so I got out a couple of discs to show the difference…and this is where I got a surprise. The PV500 doesn’t appear to have any film detection for it’s de-interlacing. This results in some quite unpleasant artefacts when watching film source material. I searched the menu system but could not find anything to suggest that film detection could be applied. If it is there then I’m sorry for not noticing.

    So due to the colour decoder error and the de-interlacing issues I’d say that this panel is actually a prime candidate for a decent scaler. I’d suggest that feeding all your sources in to a scaler then out via DVI to the HDMI input could bring serious performance enhancement. Certainly you will want to use a good progressive scan DVD player at a minimum.

    So the end result was that with careful set up and some calibration it is possible to get a significantly more accurate image. It is not possible to get a perfect image, but then that’s not possible on any display.

    Hope this is of use……

    G
     
  7. phillfyspoon

    phillfyspoon
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    I found the pw6 to have alot better colour and less artifacts then the pe50 would be interesting to see if the pw7/6 has perfect colour temp.
     
  8. Korum

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    Great, Thanks for the info Gordon.Please let us know if you ever find out how to access the IIC menu, which hopefully has settings for adjusting overscan.

    I've got a PV500 and I'm a bit worried about this lack of film detection for it's de-interlacing.Could you please describe to a noob what this actually is ? Does this mean that any interlaced source fed into the PV500 is of poor quality ?
     
  9. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Phill: There are no plasma's I've found with perfect colour temperature....until they've been calibrated. I own a D6 myself. Also remember that it's the combination of colour temperature (greyscale) and colour decoding that creates the image we see.

    Korum: In ability to recognise that the interlaced video was originally recorded with a film camera progressively results in all sorts of issues. If you want to see a gross artefact...ie one that is big and easy to see from a distance get Bridget Jones, Edge of Reason. Go to the last or second last chapter where she gets in the taxi and it drives through Picadilly Circus. Look at the Coca-Cola sign at the top of the building. It'll have moire patterns in it...moving around. With film detection that will disappear and it'll just look like a coca-cola sign.....You can actually see other more normal artefacts at beggining of that scene if you look at the railings on the road and the edge of the taxi....they'll be covered in jaggies. As the panel is an HD panel these get smoothed out more than they would on an SD panel and that helps to disguise some of the faults......

    Basically what film detection does it it looks at the interlaced fieds and combines the two that come from teh same film frame to create the full resolution progressive image. This can then be scaled up to fit panel res. A search on Secrets of Home Theater website will provide much more detailed explanation.

    Gordon

    Gordon
     
  10. Sulis

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    Thanks for sharing that with us, Gordon. I now start to understand why Piers found calibrating a PV500 such a pain... Is it worth waiting until there's a bit more info (ie. accessing IIc menus, etc.) before getting mine done, or is there a discount for being a guinea pig? :)

    Also, it would be good to hear from MAL as to the benefits to his PV500...
     
  11. Jazz Monkey Jr

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    Hello all,

    Thanks gordon for posting your findings.

    My comments:

    I would wait until you are able to access the special menu before getting a full ISF.
    I was very happy with the picture before the tweak and I am still very happy with the picture even though I know that it is overscanning quite a bit.
    The colour has been tweaked a bit, but I have not had time to sit and watch it (I went to the pub last night) so can't comment but did look good or Gordons DVD's he put in, as you can see from the graphs, it wasn't miles out on the colour settings. I will try and get some pics tonight of the before/after settings.

    I personally think, if you want perfection you need to wait for the PHD8 panels and get a decent scaler, but it is a lot of money to pay if you are happy with an 'all-in-one' solution.
    It would be nice to tweak the overscan, we will have to wait for the menu to become available.

    Also, Gordon, I tweaked my x-box so it is now NTSC so I can get hi-def modes, but the piccy is much lighter than when selected to PAL - will this be the xbox signal, as it looked OK on NTSC DVD's and it is going throught the same component input.
     
  12. Korum

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    Mal, If your xbox is set correctly for NTSC 480P/720P/1060i the screen will not be overbright.This is only an issue when running interlaced NTSC.If you are running Evox you need to go into the original NTSC Xbox dash and if you are connected to a high-def kit there are options in the Video settings for the 3 high def modes, select these then restart the xbox into Evox, the xbox logo will be overbright because that is interlaced but when Evox starts it will be 480p. Apologies if you have already done this.

    There's a couple of tips that may be useful. If you press the 'i' button on the PV500 Remote it'll tell you what resolution/aspect ratio you're in, if nothing is there you're not in 480p/720p etc,

    Also in the original xbox dash hold both triggers in and click down on both analouge sticks to switch dash to 480p, it'll look nicer and won't be overbright.
     
  13. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Mal was going to try to take some pics to try to show difference. Might be useful. If you were buying a scaler then you could have full calibration done now. Without the scaler (Lumagen) you might want to wait until I can confirm if there is an IIC menu system in the thing. If there is then without the scaler I can probably get it better than I did at my fly past at Mals.

    Gordon
     
  14. Jazz Monkey Jr

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    If you run a PV500 with a scaler, and a PHD8 with a scaler, you should get the same picture...Is this correct?

    Also, it would have been interesting to have had a HDMI DVD player to check the settings on that. It might have given different results.
     
  15. Jazz Monkey Jr

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    I have done all that, but cant tell during the day.
    Also I have 'Enter the Matrix' which is crap but it should run in 1080i, but it won't load now, it says the disc is dirty, but it is like new - any ideas?
     
  16. Jazz Monkey Jr

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    I was going to take some last night, but there wasn't that much of a difference. You can tell the blue is slightly less - but the gamma wasn't too far out anyway, was it?
     
  17. Gordon @ Convergent AV

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    No it's not correct Mal. We haven't seen a PHD8 for a start. We do know however that it will be adressable at it's native resolution at 60Hz though so we can minimise the processing being done by the panel. So with R1 discs at least there may be a benefit there with the commercial unit. We also do not know whether the panel drive system in the commercial panels is the same as in the Vierra. I believe it may not be.

    Until we have a chance to try on both we wont know. I'd expect similarities though.

    Gordon
     
  18. k0rn

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    If I recall correctly, you should set it to NTSC-Japan in order to get proper colours... so that could be related to NTSC US (Never the same colour... :D )
     
  19. Jazz Monkey Jr

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    OK, fair enough.

    I will go and take some pics now...can you suggest any films/scenes
     
  20. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    This sounds like the xbox is adding a thing called "set up" to the component vdeo signal. If it has option of non US NTSC then select that and the black level should change to the same as PAL like kOrn suggests.

    Gordon
     
  21. Gordon @ Convergent AV

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    The NO ITS NOT was not directed at the gamma curve Mal. It was about the two plasma's being the same with a scaler attached.....

    The gamma curve was close to correct shape on Normal and Cinema settings yes.

    Not sure what scenes to use. I tend to use ones with folk in them and that have a sense of percpective rather than close ups.

    Gordon
     
  22. Jazz Monkey Jr

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    I can get any decent pics, it is too bright, will try when I get home from work.
     
  23. Joe Fernand

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    Hello all

    Mal - I doubt your statement is true.

    The PV500 is a 1024x720 pixel array and the PHD8 is a 1024x768 pixel array - they will include different video processors, firmware and menu structures!

    I doubt these two products actually have very much in common - other than the Panasonic badge!!!

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  24. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Ah....well I never realised it's a 720P array.....guess that'll teach me....if it is then it might,,,,,,might,,,,,be possible to get 1:1 somehow. I should have taken the scaler out the boot ad tried.....but I'd probably have passed out in the process...still not well.....

    Gordon
    p.s. I suspect it's actually the 768 PANEL blanked.
     
  25. hs77

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    thats only true for the 37 inch PV500, the 42" is 1024x768 and uses the same panel as the phd8 will, not sure about video processors etc. though
     
  26. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Well the current HD7 42" has 2:3 flm detection....and I can't see them dropping it from the gen8 ones so I suspect that the processing will not be the same.

    Thanks for the update on resolution though HS77.


    Gordon
     
  27. hs77

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    no probs
     
  28. Joe Fernand

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    hs77

    Well spotted - I've just binned the PDF I had on file; it was a pre release one from Panasonic UK and showed the 42" PV500 with the wrong number of pixels.

    The Video Processor and the like will be different - note that with the 8 Series Display models you get 4,096 step grey scale into the DVI or HDMI inputs vs. 2,048 on the PV500; it may not translate into a real world visible difference mind :)

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  29. Jazz Monkey Jr

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    Next time you are passing :smashin:
     
  30. BigGanja

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    this is a common xbox problem, and can be caused by several thing
    however this is "generally" due to a defective DVD drive.
    Have a check, and if you happen to have the Thomson one just get rid of that french piece of junk and get a Samsung instead (the best)
    get it from the US so to save some money
    http://search.ebay.com/samsung-x-box_W0QQsofocusZunknownQQsbrftogZ1QQfromZR10QQcatrefZC6QQsatitleZsamsungQ20x-boxQQsacatZ-1QQcatrefZC6QQsargnZ-1QQsaslcZ2QQsadisZ200QQfposZQ5AIPQ2FPostalQQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQfsopZ1QQfsooZ1QQcoactionZcompareQQcopagenumZ1QQcoentrypageZsearch

    you may find some other useful info here:

    http://www.llamma.com/xbox/Repairs/xbox_dvd_repair.htm


    side note:
    the reason why you guys buy PAL consoles is beyond me, really :suicide: :suicide:
     

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