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PTAE500 50Hz via DVI?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by NoDad, May 3, 2004.

  1. NoDad

    NoDad
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    Hi guys, I'm back again. Been watching the snooker using Freeview box and RGB via scart down in the lounge. Pics are silky smooth on movement.

    I have a dedicated room upstairs and drive the PJ via DVI normally. I just can't get rid of the motion stutter caused I think by the PJ being in 60 Hz mode and the source being 50Hz of course. Can set powerstrip to 50Hz but I think the PJ forces it to 60Hz when I switch between displays.

    Any Ideas? :( :(
     
  2. Gary Lightfoot

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    Try 75hz - that's another multiple of 50 so could be succesful. Does it look fine via DVI and NTSC DVDs?

    My first DLP would run at any frequency I gave it (single speed colour whel), so I used to run 72 for NTSC and 75 for PAL. Most modern pjs run faster colour wheels and I think this restricts some frequency options.
     
  3. NoDad

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    Thanks for the reply Gary. Yes I've tried 75Hz that doesn't seem to work either. As I said I "think" the projector sends data back to the graphics card and forces 60Hz but I'm not sure about this.

    I haven't got any NTSC DVDs to try so can't comment on the stutter with those. I think I'll email Panasonic and ask for their help. It's so annoying when you've spent your hard earned, only to be dissappointed by a serious limitation.

    If I can't get this one sorted (horror of horrors) I'll have to buy a DVD player and sacrifice the better picture from the DVI (in terms of detail) for the much smoother pans :suicide: :thumbsdow
     
  4. Gary Lightfoot

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    I think most LCD panels are 'run' at 60hz, and if there's no processing in line to ensure a smooth image from both 50 and 60hz sources, there's not much you can do. I think some Sony's run the panel at 56hz which sounds crazy but apparently that's the case.

    So it seems that no matter what frequency the graphics card is sending the pj, it will only run at 60hz internaly. Unless you can convert PAL to 3:2 pulldown, there's probably not much else you can do.

    I wonder if anyone else has gotten round this problem?

    Gary.
     
  5. homeagain

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    As you have already found out, the AE500 displays all signals @ 60 hz being a fixed panel display. I have a Samsung 935 hooked up to my AE500 via DVI and NTSC discs scale to 720P extremely well with no noticeable judder in panning shots. Unfortunately PAL discs don't fare so well with noticeable judder at times.
    My solution was to hook up my all purpose PC that has PowerDVD and NvDVD loaded. The image quality alone makes a HTPC worthwhile and the use of Reclock matches the audio and video framerates to the output signal ~ 60hz for the Panasonic.
    Panning shots for both PAL and NTSC are perfectly smooth now.
    I'll keep the Samsung as the wife has no problem using it, but I'm now building a Shuttle XPC based HTPC for the best possible source for my AE500 .
    Cheers, Rob.
     
  6. NoDad

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    Hmmmm..........Thanks guys for the info. If the panels run at 60Hz, why does the Freeview box via RGB scart pan so smoothly? Is it because the AE500 is processing the incoming signal (scaling from 720x576 to 1280x720 and applying pulldown), which would not happen when driven at the native resolution via DVI?

    Homeagain, do you use reclock in preference to powerstrip or is that because of the graphics card you have? What settings do you use on reclock and can I use it with a Radion card?

    I've also sent an email to Panasonic. I'll let you know what they say.
     
  7. Gary Lightfoot

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    You may have hit the nail on the head - using DVI is probably by-passing the processing, so it goes straight into the display so to speak.

    With DVI you often lose many of the picture controls ect, so that's probably what's happening with the 500. You should be fine with NTSC though - have you tried an NTSC disc yet? If you can get 50hz via powerstrip, I wonder if the panel will work to that?

    Gary.
     
  8. homeagain

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    NoDad, I use Powerstrip and Reclock both. Powerstrip to set various custom resolutions in my registry and Reclock to match framerates. As with all HTPCs it's work in progress trying to refine picture quality even further. There are some vary informative threads on the AVS forum about syncing PAL DVDs to 60hz displays. Oh, and I'm using a Radeon 9800XT.
    My next task is to try 1920x1080i PAL through DVI as it is the only 'AA' compatible 50hz signal with the AE500. Also Reclock requires multiples of 25 for perfect audio sync with PAL material.
    I have seen 1920x1080i @ 60hz, U.S. HDTV, on a Panasonic and it is stunning.
    All this work makes a good case for buying NTSC DVDs for the AE500/Z2 crowd !
    Cheers, Rob.
     
  9. NoDad

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    Gary. I haven't got any NTSC discs so can't try that. I'll try to get hold of one.

    Rob. As I suggested to Gary I think using the DVI bypasses the PJs internal processing, so I don't think that feeding a 1920x1080i signal via the DVI will work. I thought you had to feed the native resolution of the panels i.e. 1280x720.
    I have a skystar sat receiver in my PC and Euro1080 looks stunning, which broadcasts in 1920x1080 PAL, (even though the computer is resizing to 1280x720 to drive the DVI).

    Guys, do either of you know if you can drive the PJ (via DVI) with anything other than the native resolution?

    Rob, if you have any success with 1920x1080 let me know.

    Haven't heard anything from Panasonic yet re. my email.
     
  10. Gary Lightfoot

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    You could always try it and see what you get. My pj does work with different resolutions via dvi, and it just scales them most of the time.

    Gary.
     
  11. NoDad

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    Thanks Gary, I'll give it a go tomorrow. Haven't time at the mo. I'll have a look at which resolutions work at 50Hz according to the manual and have a play. I'll report back with my findings.
     
  12. homeagain

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    It was in the Panasonic manual that lists HDTV50 as a preferred signal over DVI. I need to use Powerstrip to add 1920x1080i@50hz. I'll post the results. Also the AE500 accepts PAL progressive over DVI from the Samsung.
    Rob.
     
  13. NoDad

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    Rob, I'm in total dispair now.

    You are quite correct. There are only 2 settings for the DVI input
    which work at 50Hz.....these are;

    625p which is 720x576@50Hz (resized by the processor within the PJ to 1280x720)

    HDTV50 which is 1920x1080i@50Hz (which should give the best picture according to the manual as no processing goes on in the PJ - how they can rescale to 1280x720 without processing escapes me)

    I've been playing with powerstrip and cannot get either setting working even after tweeking values to match the specified pixel clock and scanning frequencies.

    It seems that PAL is a real afterthought, only catered for via scart, component or svideo using internal scaling by the PJ.

    Still no reply from Panasonic. If I'm going to keep this PJ, looks like getting a DVD player unless anyone else can come up with the goods.

    VERY VERY VERY DISAPPOINTING. :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow
     
  14. RobsterD

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    I'm running my AE500 via DVI and I've not noticed any motion stutter on PAL/NTSC discs,
    I have disabled Powerstrip and just run the resolution 1280x720@60Hz from the windows display properties.
    If you want me to test post your Pstrip setting and I'll have a play.
    Rob
     
  15. homeagain

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    Yeh, No joy here either. I tried the 1920x1080i@25hz that's listed as HDTV/PAL under the Powerstrip settings but the Panasonic wouldn't sync. I'm sticking to 720P@60hz with ReClock doing it's thing in the background. NTSC discs are flawless and PAL discs are acceptable. I watched "Underworld" again tonight and only a HTPC can scale the image to such a smooth yet detailed HD picture and really display all the black levels that our projectors need. The Samsung stays connected because it's cheap and convenient.
    Rob, Please try and create a working 1080i@50z matching the values in the manual. You'd be doing your fellow AE500 owners a great service. I wonder what the values for the Euro1080 broadcasts are, as we know they sync !
    Cheers, Rob.
    P.S. 576P@50hz works for me over DVI from the Samsung but I still prefer 720P@60hz for PAL discs. :suicide:
     
  16. yellowbug

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    Is this 50hz/60hz stutter only in relation to using pc's, or does this also apply to DVI via a DVD player into the AE500? Just about to go and demo the PJ and curious/terrified.
     
  17. NoDad

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    I think it's only via PC, but dependent on the firmware in the DVD player it may not have appropriate timings for the Panny 500, OR the Panny could force the DVD player to 60Hz and bingo LOTS OF STUTTER.

    It's ridiculous that the DVI input will not accept a whole range of 50Hz resolutions including the natice 1280x720.

    I'm still trying to get 50Hz working but can't get 720x576@50Hz on to the DVI output on the PC. The monitor is OK but the lowest resolution on the DVI is 800x600.

    Panasonic still not responded to my email !!!!!!! :censored:
     
  18. zoolap

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    Do you know if these problems are present via the D-sub vga connector?
     
  19. NoDad

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    Zoolap,
    Looking at the modes available on the various connectors, I would say it stands a good chance. In fact according to the manual there is only one mode available via PC (25pin D) connector, which operates at 50Hz and that's HDTV50 (1920x1080i) note this is interlaced. I can't get my monitor to work at this, so can't check switching to PJ at the mo.

    There are a number of modes available via PC (25pin D) which operate at 75Hz, these may work OK with PAL material.

    I'm continuing to pursue this one. I'll be back with more info as I find out more. I'm determined to crack this one the rewards are great and I'm sure there's a bunch of people out there with the same problems.
     
  20. NoDad

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    Well I WAS determined but now I'm not. Have "played" all day with settings.......I now need to get a life. I think I have more hours on the PJ pratting about with settings than I do watching anything :thumbsdow (I can see the ad. now - only 200h lamp use, all tweeking time).

    Well I'm off for a :beer: and then I may have a :beer:

    I'm coming to the conclusion having speant days surfing the web, fiddling with powerstrip, looking at ATI tweeks, DVI info and PJ info that If what I'm trying to do was possible, someone would have done it by now.

    Still no reply from Panasonic to my email, their after sales support is :censored: :censored:
     
  21. homeagain

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    NoDad, That's wierd that you can't get 576P@50hz over DVI. The Panasonic definitely accepts and displays it when I feed it that resolution from the Samsung DVD players DVI output. I haven't tried it from the HTPC. Did you try ReClock yet with 720P@60hz ? It seems to work for me. Your right about the lamp use ~ I have 97 hours total use with 20+ hours of that either tweaking the projector or the HTPC ! I'll continue to pursue 1080i@50hz as this seems to be our best option for PAL discs, though someone has 720P@50hz working on the Sanyo Z2. Might be worth a try ?
    Cheers, Rob.
     
  22. NoDad

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    Rob, I can't understand why when I set up the PC display to 720x576@50Hz (which works a treat) I can't clone it to the DVI output. The DVI output only goes down to 800x600 for some reason unless I'm missing something again.

    I haven't tried re-clock yet that will be one for tomorrow.

    I agree 1920x1080i would be the holy grail. The interlaced bit I think is the problem. It's very difficult trying things on the PJ if the monitor doesn't work first so that you can switch it to the PJ. Anyway off to bed now, I'm sure I'll be dreaming about this.
     
  23. homeagain

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    Did you disable the 2nd display ouput on your Radeon and switch between EDIDs on the projector. I have problems with both display outputs enabled. I can set 720P as my res' on my VGA monitor fine but if I switch to the DVI ouput I lose the signal.
    FWIW, Rob.
     
  24. NoDad

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    Rob, yes I can set 720x575@50Hz on the monitor but the DVI lowest res is 800x600@60Hz, so when I switch between displays of course it does not work because I'm feeding the PJ 800x600@60Hz with random clock frequencies which have not been optimised for that display resolution.

    I can't find out how to get the DVI on the PC to work at 720x576.

    Your Samsung DVD player must have the correct timings @ 720x576 for the PJ, getting the PC to accept 720x576@50Hz for the monitor is no prob. Trying to get the DVI connection to operate in clone mode, which should adopt the same res (or should it .......thinking about it the TV output operaters at its own res when switching between displays) is very difficult.

    Has anyone else got 720x576@50Hz working on the Radion DVI output?
     
  25. NoDad

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    Wouldn't it be good to have a graphics card program, where there were 3 tabs; one for VGA output, one for TV output and one for DVI

    Under each tab you could precisely set the display perameters/timings, which could be different for each of these 3 display types.

    Selecting a particular output could be a matter of pressing say Alt-Shift-V, T or D.

    There would be no pratting about trying to get clone working, or monitors trying to operate outside their control parameters. No changing display settings on the monitor just to use the TV or DVI output. It seems such an obvious idea, why has no one done it, including the graphics card/graphics chipset manufacturers?

    Think about it.....set the parameters for the DVI, switch to it, does it work? No, switch back to VGA, tweek settings for DVI try again. Nice and simple. Am I making any sense here?
     
  26. homeagain

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    Makes sense to me. Why not post it on the Catalyst request at the ATI website. We've just finished watching the PAL disc of 'The Last Samurai'. Started out with the HTPC running NvDVD@720P/60hz, no Reclock because there is a conflict, but couldn't live with the judder and occasional audio stutter. Tried 720P/50hz but the Panny wouldn't sync. So switched to the Samsung@625P/50hz, no judder or stutter but the picture looked grainy and a little soft, so switched again to 720P/60hz and all was well again in the world. I really don't notice the judder in panning shots from the Samsung that I know must be there in the 50/60hz conversion. I'm leaving well alone untill someone comes up with the 1080i/50hz timings, this is getting old !
    Cheers, Rob.:boring:
     
  27. NoDad

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    Rob,
    I really have given up now trying to get DVI working at either of the 500s acceptable settings. I will post a request at ATI for the features we are looking for but even if they do decide that it would be a good idea, we'll probablly be on the next generation of PJ before it comes to fruition.

    Thanks for your help and comments. I think this thread should be closed now. :hiya: <---- I mean this as bye bye!
     
  28. homeagain

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    TTFN, Rob. :suicide:
     
  29. kvanlier

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    Hi,

    I use a Yamakawa 365 DVD player. And you can easily
    run 720p @50hz or @60Hz. The latest firmware versions
    have direct support for these settings.

    Best Regards,

    Kris.
     
  30. NoDad

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    Hi Kris,

    I presume you connect via component or RGB. If you connect via DVI the problem still exists because the Panny 500 does not accept 720p @ 50Hz via the DVI. There are only 2 modes which accept 50Hz (see previous posts in this thread).

    I am now going to experiment with the VGA input on the PJ (which will not be quite as good), if I can get that working in HDTV50 mode the results should be very good.

    If I had known what I know now before I bought the PJ I wouldn't have spent £25 on a DVI cable. And for all of you out there who think you can avoid this problem be choosing a different PJ, it seems that PAL (50Hz) via DVI is a real afterthought on most PJs. Fancy not supporting 1280x720 (the native res of the PJ) @ 50Hz - UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!
     

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