PS5 LG C9 Stutter/Judder with 30FPS TLOU2 - fixed with compromise!

sw00p

Novice Member
Hey all,

I have been playing The Last of US Part 2 (TLOU2) on the PS5 with an LG C9 TV and I am seeing the background get really jerky when I move the camera around in the game. I tried another game too (Alien Isolation) and I see the same there too - if you pan the camera around the character, its hard to focus on the moving background. I don't think I remember seeing this happen on my PS4 Pro that I had before, but I haven't played these two games on it, so can't be sure.

I was wondering if anyone else has noticed this? See screenshots from the TV when camera at standstill, and when I pan the camera around are below. Video capture via phone is at Upload files for free - PXL_20210205_003502523.mp4~2.mp4 - ufile.io.

tlou2_downtown_steady.png
tlou2_downtown_pan_stutter_1.png
tlou2_downtown_pan_stutter_2.png


From what I read, some people don't notice this, but I find it hard to ignore. I have tried suggestions for reducing the 4k Transfer Rate from the PS5 settings, and to change the RGB mode to Limited. This happens with HDR off too and at 1080p and 4K. I also tried a 24 inch Dell 60Hz monitor and I could see it there too. I got in touch with Sony PS support but after trying a few things, asked to me to get in touch with LG and said they can't think of anything else. But I really don't want to play the game like this. I guess I could wait for the PS5 versions of games or for VRR support, but that's going to be a while I guess. Disappointed and considering buying a secondhand PS4 Pro to play games on.

Anybody noticing this on their PS5 with an LG C9 or other TV?
 

winka45

Well-known Member
Are you playing with TV set to game mode?

Have you tried cycling through all the TV modes, cinema, game, sport etc and see if they all do the same?

Try cinema and try setting the motion settings for 'Judder' and 'blur' to different settings and see if it makes any difference, ideally you want 'game mode' but iirc motion is locked on that.

I've not noticed anything ike that on my PS5 or PS4 on my LGCX but don't have the games you mention, but if all the above still show it then it's looking likely that it's a problem with the console.

It looks like 24p judder does on a movie or TV series.
 
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next010

Distinguished Member
Not familiar with the game but if its running at 30fps that is the cause of the stutter.

Due to the way OLED's work their panels have an ultra fast response time, this makes low FPS content display correctly as a stuttering experience (see rtings for more info).

LCD TV's from the past often masked this stutter because their panels had slow response times but as LCD's have gotten faster focusing on high refresh rates they too now expose the stutter though some still remain better than OLED for low frame rate content. This is why your PC monitor also display the stutter.

So ideally you want all games with any panning camera to be 60fps on an OLED, if a console game has the option for 60fps select that.

HDMI-VRR wont solve the problem with Sony due to the way they implement 120hz.
  • A display like the C9 has a VRR range of 40-120hz, your FPS must be in that to benefit.
  • Below 40fps VRR cannot help unless the system supports what's called LFC (low frame rate compensation).
  • LFC works by multiplying 2-3x the frames putting them back into the VRR range of the TV so 30FPS is treated as 60FPS (even if the actual FPS is not 60) or 25FPS is 75FPS.

So LFC only works at 120hz output due to the bandwidth requirements it wont work at 60hz output.

The PS5 only outputs 120Hz if a game supports a 120FPS mode so a 30FPS game will never activate the 120hz output.

Sony would have to change the way the PS5 works so you can manually select 120hz output at all times so you can use HDMI-VRR and LFC if supported by the game.
 

sw00p

Novice Member
Are you playing with TV set to game mode?

Have you tried cycling through all the TV modes, cinema, game, sport etc and see if they all do the same?

Try cinema and try setting the motion settings for 'Judder' and 'blur' to different settings and see if it makes any difference, ideally you want 'game mode' but iirc motion is locked on that.

I've not noticed anything ike that on my PS5 or PS4 on my LGCX but don't have the games you mention, but if all the above still show it then it's looking likely that it's a problem with the console.

It looks like 24p judder does on a movie or TV series.
Yeah, I am playing in Game Mode - the TV automatically switches to Game Mode when I turn on the PS5 and it switches to the PS5 HDMI port input. I did try Cinema mode with RealCinema and TruMotion turned on, but it didn't make a difference - think it became worse.

I actually bought Ghost of Tsushima which runs at 60fps on PS5 and that is smooth when panning camera. So it seems like it is what next010 mentions in his comment.

I also saw the stuttering in a BluRay 4k movie, but that did go away with RealCinema/TruMotion.
 

next010

Distinguished Member
Yeah, I am playing in Game Mode - the TV automatically switches to Game Mode when I turn on the PS5 and it switches to the PS5 HDMI port input. I did try Cinema mode with RealCinema and TruMotion turned on, but it didn't make a difference - think it became worse.

I actually bought Ghost of Tsushima which runs at 60fps on PS5 and that is smooth when panning camera. So it seems like it is what next010 mentions in his comment.

I also saw the stuttering in a BluRay 4k movie, but that did go away with RealCinema/TruMotion.

For movies real cinema and trumotion on custom with dejudder at 4 is what I find tolerable at 60hz output but might not work for you, some people are more sensitive to this than others.

You could also give BFI (black frame insertion) a try which LG brands as OLED motion Pro, I'd try the medium or high setting but the side effect is you loose brightness, so its really only suitable for SDR content, don't use it with HDR. On the 9 series there might be more flicker as well with BFI, the flicker is largely gone on the X series.

LG might make some improvements to their video processor in subsequent product releases but content not created at low FPS is the only real solution.
 

sw00p

Novice Member
Not familiar with the game but if its running at 30fps that is the cause of the stutter.

Due to the way OLED's work their panels have an ultra fast response time, this makes low FPS content display correctly as a stuttering experience (see rtings for more info).

LCD TV's from the past often masked this stutter because their panels had slow response times but as LCD's have gotten faster focusing on high refresh rates they too now expose the stutter though some still remain better than OLED for low frame rate content. This is why your PC monitor also display the stutter.

So ideally you want all games with any panning camera to be 60fps on an OLED, if a console game has the option for 60fps select that.

HDMI-VRR wont solve the problem with Sony due to the way they implement 120hz.
  • A display like the C9 has a VRR range of 40-120hz, your FPS must be in that to benefit.
  • Below 40fps VRR cannot help unless the system supports what's called LFC (low frame rate compensation).
  • LFC works by multiplying 2-3x the frames putting them back into the VRR range of the TV so 30FPS is treated as 60FPS (even if the actual FPS is not 60) or 25FPS is 75FPS.

So LFC only works at 120hz output due to the bandwidth requirements it wont work at 60hz output.

The PS5 only outputs 120Hz if a game supports a 120FPS mode so a 30FPS game will never activate the 120hz output.

Sony would have to change the way the PS5 works so you can manually select 120hz output at all times so you can use HDMI-VRR and LFC if supported by the game.

Thanks for the technical explanations. I think you are right. It seems to be because TLOU2 is running at 30 FPS. Ghost of Tsushima running at 60 FPS doesn't have the issue.

So the TV has a TruMotion setting in GameMode for OLEDs which maybe tries to delay the response time? It didn't fix the problem for me though. But if the problem is instant response time, then maybe it is possible to make the OLED behave differently so that the response time is increased? Kind of funny how the screen refreshing almost instantly, which you would think is a good thing, has the side effect that the thing driving the screen (game, movie) is now held to a higher standard. I just assumed if the refresh rate is a multiple of the input FPS (60Hz output and 30 FPS input), it would be fine. I need to read up on the rtings judder and stutter articles more.

The monitor I connected the PS5 to has a response time of 6ms, while the LG C9 has a response time of 2.4ms. I am guessing even then, the monitor response time is too fast for 30fps? I might have imagined it, but maybe I did see the stuttering to be lesser on the monitor, but don't think it was a big improvement.
 

sw00p

Novice Member
Something I learnt from the PS5 support session is about the Safe Mode for PS5s - you shut the PS5 down, then hold the power button down - the PS5 will start up, but keep holding the power button down till you hear a second beep. The screen then should show Safe Mode options. Didn't do anything for me but good to know about Safe Mode I guess.
 

next010

Distinguished Member
Trumotion is motion interpolation it tries to turn low FPS content into high FPS content.

The downside is it adds significant input lag so the time taken between your pressing a button on gamepad and what happens on screen increases.

It can be tolerable to some people in game mode if the TV allows it and you only play single player games, anything that needs quick button presses wont fair well.

You cannot alter the OLED panels response time in any way, only the video processor in the TV can try various tricks to manipulate the low FPS video removing its native stutter.

Yeah old LCD's from a decade ago had much higher response times, CRT's and plasmas are fundamentally different technology so weren't affected by this.

Modern LCD's and OLED's work best with high frame rate content, the faster they are in response time and refresh rate the better their motion resolution improves but content must be at a matching FPS to get that benefit, you can do this on a PC were 60fps or better is easy but on a console your more limited.

The PS4 had a pretty weak CPU that was intended for PC tablets!, the PS5 CPU is significantly better so 60FPS should be more common this generation.
 

sw00p

Novice Member
So @winka45, I guess I didn't try it, but cinema mode with TruMotion set to Smooth (none of the other settings for TruMotion work) does make it smoother. There are artifacts, but it's definitely better and playable. I guess there is some input lag but I am not playing first person shooters and those come with higher frame rates anyway (latest Call of Duty runs at 120FPS). Quite glad I can play 30FPS games on the LG C9 with the PS5, even though it's somewhat compromised.
 

Moddang

Member
Hi @sw00p Can you please try one thing? Turn off those tru motion off and go into your PS5 setting > video > 4k Bandwidth > set to -1. This will change your output from 4:4:4 to 4:2:2 but those pan camera judder/shuttering will be gone. You will need to set your HDR settings again in PS5 menu (those dark, white, symbol rarely visible etc thing)

I also own C9 and I can see difference immediately with God of War 4 (with the latest 4k 60fps patch). I also don't notice the difference in picture quality or maybe my eyes are not that good.

Anyway, give it a try and let me know!
 

sw00p

Novice Member
Thanks @Moddang, I had tried that and -2 too after seeing it being suggested in other forums, and the Sony PS support agent also asked me to do that, but for TLOU2 it does not make a difference.
 

Deathproof3d

Novice Member
Hi @sw00p Can you please try one thing? Turn off those tru motion off and go into your PS5 setting > video > 4k Bandwidth > set to -1. This will change your output from 4:4:4 to 4:2:2 but those pan camera judder/shuttering will be gone. You will need to set your HDR settings again in PS5 menu (those dark, white, symbol rarely visible etc thing)

I also own C9 and I can see difference immediately with God of War 4 (with the latest 4k 60fps patch). I also don't notice the difference in picture quality or maybe my eyes are not that good.

Anyway, give it a try and let me know!
Greetings,

Thank you for the fix.

setting the bandwidth to -1 worked for me as well. I was having the same panning/juddering issues in God of War 2018 (new PS5 patch) with an LG C9. No more juddering when I pan in game. However, I must confess I am a bit confused. I understand we are lowering the bandwidth to the point that we are using chroma subsampling. But this feels like a pretty big design flaw/bug that needs to be patched. Maybe with VRR as well?

Here is to hoping.
 

next010

Distinguished Member
Greetings,

Thank you for the fix.

setting the bandwidth to -1 worked for me as well. I was having the same panning/juddering issues in God of War 2018 (new PS5 patch) with an LG C9. No more juddering when I pan in game. However, I must confess I am a bit confused. I understand we are lowering the bandwidth to the point that we are using chroma subsampling. But this feels like a pretty big design flaw/bug that needs to be patched. Maybe with VRR as well?

Here is to hoping.

It has to be some other kind of bug as the GOW game was 60fps to begin with.

The other problem for the OP is 30fps is judder/stutter experience natively, its just OLED exposes it as it has been masked in the past by differing displays technologies and slow panel response times.
 

GamerKonge

Novice Member
Anybody noticing this on their PS5 with an LG C9 or other TV?
I have the B9 and imo the TLOU2 is simply unplayable how things are now,we can only hope for a 60fps support patch for the Ps5 in the future.
30fps games is not recommended on the b9 or c9 and this is something LG wont/cant fix so my suggestion is avoiding buying games that isnt 60fps or better.I was thinking of buying The Medium for Series X but its only 30fps so no deal there.
Really sad that LG Oled is so poor on this matter but hopefully 30fps games is more of the past now and that upcoming games is mostly 60fps or higher.
 
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Ultrasonic

Well-known Member
I have the B9 and imo the TLOU2 is simply unplayable how things are now,we can only hope for a 60fps support patch for the Ps5 in the future.
30fps games is not recommended on the b9 or c9 and this is something LG wont/cant fix so my suggestion is avoiding buying games that isnt 60fps or better.I was thinking of buying The Medium for Series X but its only 30fps so no deal there.
Really sad that LG Oled is so poor on this matter but hopefully 30fps games is more of the past now and that upcoming games is mostly 60fps or higher.
Are you definitely using Game Mode on your B9?
 

Ultrasonic

Well-known Member
I'll add that I played 30 FPS games on my C9 using my PS4 without judder. I don't think I've tried one on my PS5 yet but doubt it's changed.

I've only skimmed this thread but I have a hunch the main issue is people not selecting Game Mode, which needs to be done manually on the TV rather than it being automatic.
 

GamerKonge

Novice Member
Are you definitely using Game Mode on your B9?
Yes of course :)
edit: The judder on TLOU2 is a lot worse on my Oled vs my 7 year old Samsung tv.
But ps4 games like Days Gone and God Of War is amazing on my B9 but they have been patched for PS5
 
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Deathproof3d

Novice Member
I'll add that I played 30 FPS games on my C9 using my PS4 without judder. I don't think I've tried one on my PS5 yet but doubt it's changed.

I've only skimmed this thread but I have a hunch the main issue is people not selecting Game Mode, which needs to be done manually on the TV rather than it being automatic.
I don’t think that is true.

my C9 is always in game mode for all inputs. It is only used for gaming on my PC, PS5, and Switch and it has been set to the recommended RTING.com settings for gaming on each input.

I have done allot of digging into this. Setting the HDMI transfer speed does help with this issue on GoW 2018 but not totally. Sometime you need to go change the performance mode of the game to get it to “correct itself”.

All of my testing and research has led me to the conclusion that this issue is based on the emulation used for backward compatibility.

I have 3 PS5 titles that look fine running in 30 FPS. Spider-Man Miles Morales, Demon’s Souls, Nioh 2. Nine of these titles have issues regardless of favor performance or frame rate.

However, all of my last gen titles even with PS5 updates exhibit some form of stuttering. Days Gone, TLOU2, GoW 2018, etc.

the issue seems to worsen if the console is out to sleep rather than turn off. Power cycling the console always seems to help the issue.

Honestly, I think backwards compatibility is busted on the PS5 and OLED TVs just reveal the issue. Backwards compatibility was probably rushed out before it was ready as it is a core feature (unlike VRR).

At this point I think the only hope we have is to make due with work around s in the meantime and hope the issue gets fixed in a system update.

My 2 cents for what it’s worth.
 

Deathproof3d

Novice Member
It’s worth noting I have had the C9 for about a year and I did not have any issues with my PS4 games when they were running on a PS4 pro.
 

Ultrasonic

Well-known Member
I don’t think that is true.
Which bit specifically? The need to manually enable game mode with a PS5 on a C9 definitely is.

Backwards compatibility has been good on the games I've played but they may all run at 60 FPS. F1 2020 definitely is, and the others I've played are Shadow of Mordor and Pure Pool.
 

Ultrasonic

Well-known Member
It’s worth noting I have had the C9 for about a year and I did not have any issues with my PS4 games when they were running on a PS4 pro.

FWIW I believe the PS4 Pro will have lead to game mode automatically being selected, like my original PS4 did.
 

Deathproof3d

Novice Member
Which bit specifically? The need to manually enable game mode with a PS5 on a C9 definitely is.

Backwards compatibility has been good on the games I've played but they may all run at 60 FPS. F1 2020 definitely is, and the others I've played are Shadow of Mordor and Pure Pool.
The part about the issue being Game mode.

Yes, Auto Low Latency was present on the PS4 Pro and it is not enabled on the PS5 (yet?).

However, I have been fighting with this stutter stuff since the PS5 launched.

Game mode is important, I am not disagreeing at all with that.

I just think that backwards compatibility has issues that need to be resolved and everything else is a band-aid.

PS4 and PS5 use completely different operating systems (though they are using the same architecture) and the way PS4 games are working is through emulation.

Honestly I think that PS5 is half baked, which is also evident by the lack of HDMI 2.1 features that were promised as well as expandable storage.

I love the console... New games play great but I think that they have a lot of system updating to do to get to where they said they would be.
 

Ultrasonic

Well-known Member
I bought a PS5 now specifically because of its back compatibility rather than to play new games and so far at least all I can say is that I've not been disappointed. I based this decision on the numerous YouTube videos showing improved performance of PS4 games on PS5. I find your experience a little puzzling but this may just come down to the specific games tried.
 

Ultrasonic

Well-known Member
@Deathproof3d have you experienced an issue with any of the PlayStation Plus Collection games? If you have I'll download it to see how it seems for me...
 

Ultrasonic

Well-known Member
In case it helps anyone browsing this thread, here's a related one where the game mode issue did appear to be the issue (with some possibly helpful links too):

 

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