PS4 Discussion - PC Gamer's PoV w/ No Flaming!

Discussion in 'Playstation - PS4 & Vita' started by TheNameIsJambo, Feb 21, 2013.

?
  1. YES, YES, YES! TAKE MY MONEYS!

    6 vote(s)
    16.2%
  2. No. The presentation sucked balls.

    1 vote(s)
    2.7%
  3. I'm a PC gamer brah. Consoles suq.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. I will wait for the Xbox 720 press conference before I make up my mind.

    16 vote(s)
    43.2%
  5. I want to wait for pricing and final hardware details.

    7 vote(s)
    18.9%
  6. I'm buying both the 720 and PS4, because I'm richer than all of you!

    7 vote(s)
    18.9%
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  1. TheNameIsJambo

    TheNameIsJambo
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    There's not a discussion thread on the PS4 from the perspective of a PC gamer/hardware enthusiast, so I thought I'd start one.

    From what I see, lots of boys and girls are jumping up and down like a Jack Russell terrier on pharmaceutical grade cocaine. I love it when people see this stuff and it's like a door has been opened to Narnia, like Sony have take this this technology from Star Wars, as if it were something revolutionary - It isn't really, the PS4 tech demo [from 20/02/2013] was ran on a 'similarly powered PC'.

    There's two things I'd like to clarify here:
    1. A sigh of relief that the PS4 will be using PC components and architecture, which means we won't just be getting 'Console Ports' anymore. They will be designed from the ground up with x86 and GCN architecture in mind. No more ridiculous 'PowerPC' - Performance Optimization With Enhanced RISC – Performance Computing or CELL architecture that is poorly converted over to the x86_32 or x86_64 platform.
    2. According to contrary belief, the PS4 isn't that powerful - Even if it is Supercharged! It will be similar to that of an mid-high-level laptop. The CPU being what you'd find in an entry-level laptop, the GPU in a high-end gaming laptop.

    Still though, that bloke (Marc) who was wearing the kitchen curtain shirt, will never live down calling the PS4 hardware 'Supercharged'. He didn't need to give rhyme, reason or even the slightest bit of quantification. The fact that it's entirely magic is good enough for him. I hope that he takes care when he rides his Unicorn to work, they're somewhat a rarity these days.

    I'm not starting a flame-war here, so don't get all Sony fan-boy on me. Yes, I am a PC gamer but I want to create a constructive thread, on what is under the hood of the PS4 and what kind of performance and benefits we can reep - Both for the benefit of console gamers and the boon of DirectX11 graphics, which will make the PC gaming community infinitely happy..

    Side Note - Did you know that DX11 has been around since 2008, but we've only seen a handful of titles utilise it, properly, at least, on the PC, because consoles have been stuck in the year 2002 with DX9. Yes, the technology that powers the 360/PS4 is from 2002, whilst the hardware is high-end 2005. If they'd held out a little longer, they could of dropped DX10 architecture in there.​


    The new PS4 will be, roughly, as powerful as a very high-end PC from 2008, or similar to high-end PC from 2009. Actually, the best comparison to make would be to say that it will be similar to a high-end gaming laptop with an entry-level CPU, that has been doubled in size - Making it a middle-high-ish CPU? I don't even know where to begin on the CPU, as there are very few details regarding the Shaguar.

    Us ('PC Gamers') have been awaiting this ('PS4 announcement') moment for at least 3-4 years... And it literally couldn't come sooner. Our DX11 monsters don't have any DX11 friends, except from Battlefield 3 and a couple of notable others.

    Btw, whilst watching that dreadful PS4 announcement - I don't know about you, but I couldn't give a flying toss about the Facebook/Social integration features.

    DAS HARDWARE
    Column 1 Column 2
    0 CPU : x86-64 AMD “Jaguar”, 8 cores
    1 GPU : 1.84 TFLOPS, AMD next-generation Radeon™ based graphics engine
    2 Memory : 8GB of GDDR5


    CPU

    Source: HERE

    The good news is here, that the Jaguar will have one floating point unit to one integer unit - For those of you who don't understand, I have one word for you to Google: Bulldozer.

    Unfortunately, it looks like Sony and Microsoft are using the same CPU in their console. Gotta love a good bit of market competition, there's nothing like it! I hope either 1 or both of the console developers change that CPU out so one has an edge over the other. Otherwise, you may as well be better off buying just one, depending on which has the best networking [both social and gaming] and multimedia capability AKA buy the one your friends are going to buy, or else you're going to be alone - forever.

    The original AMD Shaguar has 4 cores, so this is definitely a custom chip. Originally, it is/was designed for mobile use [laptops, tablets, phones] and created in direct competition with the Intel Atom, it bamboozles me as to why Sony/MS have went with this chip - unless they're planning to build an unbelievably small-form, or even portable, platform.

    Possibly, in stead of having a 4 core chip with 3.2GHz per-core and each core processing 2 threads at once, they've went for 8 physical cores, at half the speed. I'd prefer more cores to more hyper-threading; will the chip be cable of AMD's HT equivalent? If so, that's good news too. For those of you that don't know how Intel's HyperThreading works, it is essentially working like this:

    Imagine in your mind a supermarket, there are 4 queues, with 4 cashiers who can multi-task. All 4 queues have old ladies standing with a basket full of shopping and once they get to the till they start counting mountains of change. So, there you are, standing in a queue, behind an old lady, who is taking her time and counting all of her change. But you only have a loaf of bread, and have the exact change. The cashier looks at you, notices that you've got the correct change and says, "I'll process you just now, and let you pass." - The cashier asks the old lady to stand aside while she rockets you through the till.

    Now, imagine having the same supermarket, but there are lots of old ladies with lots of change, all standing one behind another... Urgh... And unfortunately, you're waaay at the back. Now, the cashiers can't multi-task, like they did with you. They just have to keep churning through the old ladies until you're in a position to get through.

    So, at that exact moment, the supermarket decides to upgrade, they go SimCity on you and plop down 4 more cashier desks and replace the cashiers with ones that can't multitask. They can now process all of the old ladies at the same time! Now they can spread out, right across the store, and give you a better chance of getting served.​

    Essentially, HT comes in handy when you have less bandwidth, but it only comes in handy in certain conditions. More bandwidth is always better.

    I'm thinking that with more cores, less speed they discovered a great trade-off in performance vs heat vs cost. That would definitely be my guess. Less transistors = Less power draw = Less heat = Low cost.

    The original has a TDP of 25W, so I'm guessing double for 8 cores. Which is hee-haw. This will allow for a very-small-form PS4.

    GPU

    Sony have quoted, "1.84 TFLOPS, AMD next-generation Radeon™ based graphics engine."

    [​IMG]

    The way I see it, AMD are able to make these chips by just slamming CUs together - almost in a modular fashion - and keep a (near) linear scale of performance.

    It's a good style of HW design to go for with consoles, because at any one time, before the release of the PS4, Sony can turn around and say, "Right boys, lets get it right around Microsoft, we want another 4 CUs dropped in for the release day console." - That way they don't need to reinvent the wheel, in order to squeeze more juice out of their box.

    Pretty much every tech-geek website on the Interweb has quoted that the GPU will host 18 Compute Units, leading me to believe that the performance is going to similar to watered down HD7970M - The desktop equivalent lies somewhere between a HD7850->HD7870. Lets throw out some base stats and whip up a comparison.

    HD7870:
    • Core Clock: 1000MHz
    • 2.56 TFLOPS Single Precision compute power
    • GCN Architecture
    • 20 Compute Units (1280 Stream Processors)
    • 80 Texture Units
    • 128 Z/Stencil ROP Units
    • 32 Color ROP Units

    HD7850:
    • 860MHz Engine Clock
    • 153.6GB/s memory bandwidth (maximum)
    • 1.76 TFLOPS Single Precision compute power
    • GCN Architecture
    • 16 Compute Units (1024 Stream Processors)
    • 64 Texture Units
    • 128 Z/Stencil ROP Units
    • 32 Color ROP Units
    • Dual Geometry Engines
    • Dual Asynchronous Compute Engines (ACE)

    HD7970M:
    • 850 MHz Engine Clock
    • 2.17 TFLOPS Single Precision compute power
    • Graphics Core Next (GCN) Architecture
    • 20 Compute Units (1280 Stream Processors)
    • 80 Texture Units
    • 128 Z/Stencil ROP Units
    • 32 Color ROP Units

    Depending on what type of architecture Sony are running, if you take a blend of the above stats, take out a little cost, power-requirements and reduce the heat - You get what's inside the PS4.

    If you take the HD7970M, take away two CUs, you get a GPU with 1152 Stream processors, and you land on a juiced up HD7850. Although, the PS4 has a slightly better count of TFLOPS! :) I'm guessing this is attributed to a little witchery with the GCN architecture, either that or they're using GCN2, or are using a tweaked version of GCN.

    The GCN cards are built for computing. There's no doubt about that. These cards can pack a big bang for computing, although, raw computing power isn't shader arithmetic. The GTX680 has 3.1TFLOPS of shader arithmetic, the HD7970 has 3.8TFLOPS of shader arithmetic - Yet, amazingly, they perform very similar. They both push ahead in their own separate titles, depending on which have the best/optimised drivers and who has been a 'partner' during the development cycle.

    Usually, games that have sided with AMD, AMD cards will have the best performance on that title - Same applies to nVidia.

    It made sense for Sony to choose AMD, because they were planning on using the GPU as a GPGPU, and are using the GPU for physics computation(s).

    Personally, I would of liked to of seen the PS4 break the 2TFLOP barrier with the GPU, since the PS3 seemed to do it so easily - according to Sony's press release, many moons ago! But again, I digress, this is a laptop-esque console we're talking about here. You can't cram in all of that power with nowhere for the heat to go.

    Sony may increase the clock speed before release day, or change it in a firmware update; like they/you can do with the portable PS devices. It's more than possible to squeeze more juice out of these cards. As a PC gamer, I should know. The AMD cards have MASSIVE overclocking capabilities, and that's without playing with the voltages; that's when you drastically increase temperatures.

    Maybe, having the PS4 and 720 use AMD for gaming is a good step for us PC gamers. A lot of games will be optimised for the GCN & x86 architecture - Here's hoping that AMD don't abandon it, just a little-ways down the line. The boys with HD7970s may not need to upgrade for quite some time!

    RAAAAAM:
    I'm so, so ****ing glad they've went with 8GB of unified RAM, that is way more than expected. The 720 is slated to use 4GB of DDR3, coupled with a little bit of cache to make up for their own negligence - That's a fail.. A massively, massive fail.

    The fact that Sony is going with all GDDR5 is a big sigh of relief too. That's the stuff you normally see on all/most higher end GPUs, and it is FAST.

    I personally would of wanted to see a little more RAM in there, considering a lot of games these days can use, in excess of 2-3GB of RAM and a lot of them are dogging GPUs that have 2GB of VRAM. Skyrim on the PC can use 3GB of VRAM, when coupled with the HD texture mods. That's a total of 4GB of available RAM and 3GB of VRAM being chewed up by one game.

    Not to mention, the PS4 will have the SonyOS running in the background, with the multimedia functions and Sony 'home' environment running too. They even have video being constantly being recorded, on a separate chip [The AMD APU?] - That kind of stuff requires a good bit of frame-buffer and is I/O heavy too; especially when considering your friends can tune-in. I'm assuming they will use the Gaikai system for that and keep your PS4 constantly uploading - But again, I digress. We can chat about Gaikai later.

    Above, I didn't mention anything regarding the RAM on the GPUs, because as always, this console is using a unified RAM system. Although, I will say ONE thing about existing technology.

    The current HD7000 series can support a maximum of 153.6 GB/s memory bandwidth. The Sony boys' custom unified design has allowed them to squeeze 23GB/s more - That's a lot more pixels. :smashin:
     
  2. TheNameIsJambo

    TheNameIsJambo
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    Remember folks, you can't make a DIRECT comparison with console->PC hardware.

    The GPU, CPU and memory controllers are all integrated. Unlike on a PC where we have to go between bridges, controllers, and what-have-you.

    The PS4 will have a much higher throughput than a PC of equivalent hardware value.

    Sony's Super Cool Features

    Sony have announced a few cool things they can do with the PS4.

    PS Vita Integration
    They've clearly taken a leaf from the School of WiiU and had a go of putting PS4 titles on the Vita [wireless streaming?].

    That's a neat feature. If they can integrate that, similar to the WiiU that would be sweet. As opposed to simply having remote play.

    Sleepy Time

    Another cool feature was the 'Hibernate' function they've built in. So, you will no longer have to:
    1. Leave the console on when you leave the house for a couple of hours, and a save-point is nowhere to be seen.
    2. Run to a checkpoint before bed-time, or leave the console on all night!

    Head in the Clouds
    The Gaikai service looks like it also being put to good use. Being able to watch live footage from your friends and even jump in at will. That's a sweet feature.

    The main function I thought of with Gaikai was being able to play game demos on the fly. That will be a real crowd pleaser! :D
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2013
  3. TheNameIsJambo

    TheNameIsJambo
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    Reserving this post for any community attributed updates that I can drop in here.
     
  4. GTeng

    GTeng
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    Have you been typing that since last night? :laugh:
     
  5. JustinJ004

    JustinJ004
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    Is there really any need for this thread here? I couldn't give a **** what anyone from a so called "Master-Race" thinks about the PS4 and I'm a PC gamer!
     
  6. TheNameIsJambo

    TheNameIsJambo
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    I just said 'No Flaming' - even in the title of my thread.

    Loving your constructive criticism on the ins and outs of the PS4 though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2013
  7. TheNameIsJambo

    TheNameIsJambo
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    Only a couple of hours :smashin: [15,000 characters :eek]

    I'm on holiday, with nothing better to do! :D
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2013
  8. JustinJ004

    JustinJ004
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    I'm not a console gamer and the first thing you type is a flame at them. Grow up dude! :facepalm:
     
  9. TheNameIsJambo

    TheNameIsJambo
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    My other PS4 thread was shut down in the PC Gaming section - And thus, I came here.. Only to receive grief so far.

    I was hoping to break down the components and capabilities of the PS4 with like-minded beings - Hopefully come up with some good ideas of what Sony can bring to the table.

    So much for trying to contribute to the community.
     
  10. Tetlee

    Tetlee
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    I'll be buying both the next Playstation and Xbox, I just can't resist a new console:)
     
  11. Foster

    Foster
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    Just wanna see more about it now :D
     
  12. JustinJ004

    JustinJ004
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    In that case why do you have to come over from your "Master Race" podium and not just as an interested outsider like any normal person?

    You could easily ask questions without mentioning another format or if you really have bring up a PC do so without projecting a faux superiority that your title suggests.

    It makes us PC gamers look like asses and drives me nuts.

    I will buy both consoles and continue to use them along side my PC fwiw.
     
  13. TheNameIsJambo

    TheNameIsJambo
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    I want to see a HD video of the conference, and fast forward to the good parts [the games].

    The 480P video was horrendous last night, it was like watching a broken VHS.
     
  14. Soundburst

    Soundburst
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    The shots of the new controller on Joystiq look brilliant. Chunky and quality. :)
     
  15. Soundburst

    Soundburst
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    Seems the PSN/XMB is changing to a Facebook style 'Timeline feed' a bit like Vita's live area. That'll be nice.

    In the profile screenshot we saw you can see your real photo and real name (as opposed to your avatar) and that of your friends. . .then down the right you can see what all your friends do. That'll be nice to have like 'James is playing Black Ops 4: Join' instead of "ImWellHard99 is playing Black Ops 4".
     
  16. TheNameIsJambo

    TheNameIsJambo
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    Sorry J-Dawg. I've changed the title of the thread. I come here in peace ;)

    I wasn't condescending, in any way, on the PS4. I'm actually pretty stoked about its release. Everyone loves a new console release man. The PS4 actually has decent specifications. HD7850/70, 8-core CPU and 8GB of DDR5 w/ the usual A/V stuff included. It's like a mainstream gaming rig.

    The way that consoles are optimised and worked on, the PS4 will probably match a HD6970/7950 - Fairly easily. That is what I'm glad about. Even AMD have said they're sticking with the HD7000 series, because there's no need to move on, when their consoles have the HD7000 GCN architecture at the core.

    In a few years time we will really see the PS4 being pushed to its limits.

    I have just had enough with the PS3 and 360 limping along, these consoles were due out at least 2 years ago! :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2013
  17. Foster

    Foster
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    I think you can have it either way, which is good for those who don't like saying their real name :).
     
  18. JustinJ004

    JustinJ004
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    Thanks fella and I'm sorry if I come across as aggressive but the Master Race thing really gets on my nerves and it can offend some people.

    I know you were most likely tongue in cheek but not everyone would know that.

    On topic I agree with everything you just typed there. :thumbsup:
     
  19. TheNameIsJambo

    TheNameIsJambo
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    No worries mate, I forget that some people don't appreciate my dry-as-hell humour - And it's hard to convey sarcasm using only text!

    I'm getting future proof for the new consoles. Just bought a TITAN! :laugh:

    The damn PS3 and 360 had 512MB of RAM, and the PC equivalents still required gfx cards with 1-2GB of VRAM and a few GB of RAM!
     
  20. JustinJ004

    JustinJ004
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    Nice purchase fella!

    I am going to hold off on a Titan (or any new GPU) until I see a game that needs it but part of me really wants one. :laugh: I've only just put in a 660ti so the misses would slaughter me laying down that kind of money already.

    I'm really hoping that the PS4 & 720 will mean better ports for us PC gamers now that they appear to be all closer in architecture. Also can't wait to see Uncharted in 1080p, in fact I would buy them all again from the store just for higher res! I know I'm a saddo.
     
  21. Tall_Paul

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    As a current ex-console gamer turned PC gamer, it's all about the games. :smashin:

    Hardware aside (100% agree that it can only mean good things for the gaming industry as a whole and especially good for the PC gaming market), if there are games on the PS4 that look great and aren't on PC, then I'll be tempted :D

    If Sony manage to include 4K Blu-ray playback then that will be a big selling point, even though 4k TV's aren't really around yet it'll help get 4K off the ground. Remember what happened to Blu-ray when the PS3 was launched.

    I was a PS3 (and occasional 360) gamer for a number of years, PS3 died (orginal 60GB version) and I had already started to transfer over to PC gaming. Still have some mates that I haven't played with on console for a long time that I'd love to get back playing with, but as said above, if there's no games that I want to play on it, then what's the point in buying one? :confused:

    PC will likely always be my primary platform now, but yeah I'd deffo buy a PS4 given the right price and a decent selection of games. The controller is dead sexy too, I must admit :D

    With the specs of the PS4, all developers should be able to make games run at 1920x1080 and at 60fps, if they don't then I'd be a little disappointed. The 7850 gpu can already run BF3 which is a pretty demanding PC game at that res and frame rate, so I don't expect anything less for the PS4.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2013
  22. oldman100

    oldman100
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    Me too, there's nothing quite like that feeling of removing a new console from it's packaging for the very first time :blush:
     
  23. Tetlee

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    It looks a great improvement over the DS3, like the DS3 with the Comfort Grips added which for my taste makes the DS3 so much nicer.

    Looks a nice comfortable controller and while I generally prefer the layout of the Xbox thumb sticks, at least the gap between the two sticks appears wider now which should save make it better.
     
  24. springtide

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    1st question...... what would be the cost of the components listed within the PS4 spec actually cost if it was a PC?

    I think what Sony did was very cleaver. They demonstrated what the box will be capable of doing while partually avoiding getting too mixed up with the specifications. People get too obsessed with the specs and loose sight of the end goal.

    The real question is whether Sony have achieved the next gen gaming platform at a target price or not?

    If people were expecting the PS4 would rival in power a high end desktop PC (i7, top flight GPU) for £400 - they are off their rocker!

    So the PS4 doesn't have to be faster than a supercomputer... it just needs to be good enough to run the games at the target resolution (to 1080p).

    The PS3 processing power is pretty poor by today's PC standards, but the game performance the game houses squeeze out of it is very impressive.
     
  25. Det

    Det
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    Thanks for the write-up from a PC Gamer... appeared to be very informative of its capabilities. I used to PC Game (WOW nerd back in 2005-2007) and I had a mid end custom computer and it worked well on high settings... so I'm stoked if the PS4 runs better than a top end 2008 PC. Also, the fact that it's a "dedicated" console for gaming a few other knick knacks like music/movies/etc will mean it will push it harder than a 2008 top end PC. Especially with the 8gb RAM... I had 4gb back then and that was considered middle ground iirc.

    Tbh, the specs blow my expectations out of the water considering how limited the PS3 is now and how exceptional some games continue to look on it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2013
  26. Tall_Paul

    Tall_Paul
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    Rough retail prices:

    7850 GPU - £150
    CPU - £80

    Although it's a combined CPU & GPU APU so probably looking at about £100, jaguar hasn't been released yet, the a10 5800k APU is the top of the line desktop version and costs £100.

    500GB HDD - £40
    PSU - £40
    Motherboard - £60
    8GB System ram (DDR3 so nowhere near as expensive as GDDR5) £40
    Blu-ray drive - £30

    Total Retail price around £400 ish

    It works out about right, I'd expect retail price of the PS4 to be between £300 and £400, £300 being a 320GB version and £400 being a 1TB version.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2013
  27. Soundburst

    Soundburst
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    £400 retail not including R&D costs. . .OS and software development costs etc. It'll be sold at a loss as away of course.

    So does the strange camera come with it? I can't see people bothering to buy it separately. If they bundle the camera and microphone then it'll go a good way to ensuring a very social console (being visible on a friends screen as you watch them play a game - but who would do this lol). If it's all seperate then It'll be awkward.

    The camera has two basic HD cameras in it 1280X800 so I can't see it being that expensive to bundle in.
     
  28. scanz

    scanz
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    Good point, no mention of this last night or from further reports yet. Do hope so and it would make sense in terms of progression from the PS3.
     
  29. TheNameIsJambo

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    The Jaguar is and isn't an APU. It's a 'building block' of an APU. From what I've seen online of the new Jaguar [successor to Bobcat], the Jaguar isn't like the AMD A10 - Which has a HD7750-ish, or something like that, attached to the CPU.

    The Sony Jaguar will be a lot different to a desktop Jaguar. AMD are probably holding out to see how much graphical prowess they can cram in, without busting the wallets of consumers.

    I don't know if the GPU will be an 'on-die' solution with the PS4, they could probably tack it on at the side, easily, but then again - They have voltage leak and heat to worry about doing that. The HD7850 and 7970M run kinda warm. Maybe having one monolithic vapour-chamber HSF will solve their problems, but if they have two separate chips then they can run the clocks and voltages higher, because the heat would be spread across the board and each HSF can focus on drawing away the heat by itself.

    I can see both of the chips being stuck together [Like Intel i5/i7 and the HD3000, HD4000 etc.] Those Intel chips can still run cool, even when they're both at it and it would probably increase throughput as they can share caches.

    Bah, we'd need to see under the hood - But from the conference yesterday, the damn thing isn't even finished yet! [As expected].

    But there will be two separate types of chip in that thing, 8xbog standard x86 chips & 18xGCN CU clusters - It's just a question of seeing the die images.

    EDIT:
    You're pretty close with the PC specs. It is around £400-500 for a similar PS4 setup. They're going to make a lot less of a loss this time around.

    Both MS and Sony made huge losses on this thing. This time they're going to try and recoup their losses.

    I think MS moreso, as the leaked specs on that were a lot worse off than the PS4 - And the PS4 have Gaikai at their disposal!!
     
  30. Tall_Paul

    Tall_Paul
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    Well it'll have a blu-ray player, and HDMI, and no doubt it'll have upscaling capabilites so I'd be surprised to not see 1080p blu-ray 4k upscaling at the very least.

    4k requires HDMI version 1.4 (PS3 only has HDMI 1.3, which cannot be updated to 1.4 with just firmware as it needs a new chip) which they would be stupid not to have.

    HDMI 1.4 supports 3840 x 2160 pixels at 24Hz, 25Hz and 30Hz and 4096 x 2160 pixels at 24Hz.
     
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