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ProLogic II .. PANTS !!

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by Zog, Dec 7, 2001.

  1. Zog

    Zog
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    Or what?
    Some people on here might take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to provoke trouble, just discussion, but what is the true aim of contributors to this board.
    I am beginning to wonder whether rather than aiming for the best possible set-up for their varying AV budgets, (too) many are simply collecting as many gizmos, gadgets and effects to impress friends as they can for their varying AV budgets. You know the individuals to whom I am referring. They have never watched a full film in their lives, but bore everybody from Jehovah's Witnesses to their own girlfriends with the pod racing scene from Phantom Menace at every opportunity. (Helicopters have become so passe!)
    Read many reviews and posted many questions on here re. a future choice of amp. Made my choice on the basis that all these various audio effects were a must.
    Then had a listen... mmmhhh !!!!!! Very revealing.
     
  2. alanrob

    alanrob
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    I've spent the last 10 years getting myself to the level I'm at now (Tag McLaren AV32R/DVD32R/100x5R and a big Sony WS TV) and the most important thing to me through it all has been the quality of sound.

    How you can say that because some people love to talk about scenes in movies that blow them away on their systems are not true movie fans is beyond me.
    Are you trying to say that you haven't just put on the take off scene in Apollo 13, or the Pod Race in TPM ? These are what most of use call test scenes that show how good our gear is.

    I have over 300 DVD's in my collection and over 200 LD's and 500 VHS tapes. I am a true movie fan. Because I like to try new equipement by listening to a select few scenes in movies, it shows that I know what I like and how best to see what difference a new piece of kit makes to my setup.

    As for DPL2, this adds so much to normal DPL of stereo sound that it is a must have audio format. Anyone who has heard what it can do with normal broadcast sound will tell you the same.
     
  3. Rob

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    Each to thier own.

    I find it hard to believe that anybody who has heard PLII can say its not a worthy addition. I use it most of the time now for music & broadcast/ VHS etc. PLII sounds better on the Tag than DD did on my previous processor ( Yam DSP-E800) which was pretty good anyway. Wouldn't be without it now.

    My tuppence worth!

    Rob.
     
  4. Nic Rhodes

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    Rob

    Smack on but most people don't realise this.:cool:
     
  5. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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  6. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    I sat and watched LEXX 1.1 DVD played back in PL11 from a TAG dvd/av32r through our dem Snell speakers and was gobsmacked!!!!

    I had originally tried to do dems of PL v PL11 and got bored. However, just sitting watching this disc astounded me. My boss at StereoStereo even walked in to the room and asked if the disc had re-mastered 5.1 surround on it!

    So I think maybe you have a bad implimentation of PL11 on your amp or it is broken.

    Gordon
     
  7. uncle eric

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    Zog,
    I would very much like to know what Amp/Reciever you own or have listened to with DPL11.
    I've just used my second 3802 on another install I just completed and again to say I was impressed is an understatement.
    The 3802 is nowhere near the top of the tree when it comes to processing and amplification but its implementation of DPL11 is incredible.
    When I first heard that the DPL11 format was about to be released my first words were, "Here we go again" Why would anyone need this when we have DTS NEO.
    I was wrong, big time.
    DPL11 blows DTS Neo clean out of the water. I think Fosgate is a magician with what he has done here.
    I suggest you have another listen, failing that, go for the best sound upgrade possible......clean out your ears.

    Eric
     
  8. Nic Rhodes

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    I have to agree with Gordon and Eric on this. I wrote a review of the software options on the Tag for their web site (nothing to do with Tag but just my views). I find PL2 the most significant processing format I have yet experrienced yet, and I have been using surround sound for >11 years now!

    It is not the best (DD vs DTS fans can battle it out here) but it does the best with what it it given. My experrience suggest people struggle to tell it appart when done well (Tag and Denon?)from 5.1. It just works sooooo damn well. Personally I think Tag should supply it as a Standard.

    John Fosgate has done a brilliant job, I just wish I could afford the red based valve decoder that it was developed on that Fosgate is now marketing.

    Valves are king after all:D ;)

    The not the nine o'clock sketch about the BBC liciece fee comes to mind.....
     
  9. nickeng

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    I just wish someone would make a DPLII add on processor, as I cant add it to my Pioneer THX amp without:

    a) buying a new amp
    b) add on decoder..

    Something like the Yamaha E-800 would be nice..

    It could also have DTS NEO6, etc...

    I would think that there would be a big market for this sort of thing as most of the DD amps for the last 2 years will be missing these newer sound formats and there is nothing really wrong with the amps to warrent the expense of an upgrade just for the new formats...

    Hardware Suppliers...what about it???!?!?!?!?!


    :clown:
     
  10. Rob

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    Hardware manafactuers would loose out , they are better off to sell you an entire new unit than to sell an add-on. This is why I (and others I'm sure) decided on the Tag. Not only do you get top class decoding but its cheaper in the long run as well. You have the option to add whatever upgrade you choose when it becomes available.
    A no-brainer. Worth every penny.

    Rob.
     
  11. Zone

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    Denon upgrade coming early 2002.

    The AVC-A1SE upgrade will comprise of the following elements:

    Dolby Pro Logic II
    DTS 96/24
    DTS ES Discrete 6.1 +THX Processing
    Dolby Headphone decoding
    Panja and Crestron control capability
    Adjustable cross-over switching
    Improved on screen displays

    Obviously, the application of such a comprehensive and technologically complex upgrade requires careful and intensive planning, as well as extensive liaison between our many proprietary technology partners.
    For this reason, we are not yet in a position to confirm the exact procedure and anticipated pricing. We hope and expect to be in a position to do so very early in the New Year and will post further details on this site when they are available.

    I've simply lifted this from Denons UK site, so at least some manufacturers are prepared to do the necessary!!

    Cheers

    Si
     
  12. Nic Rhodes

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    Si

    and what about all the other Denon models like my mates 10? Denon were dragged kicking and screaming into doing this upgrade. In the end it was only for the flagship model. It was a missed oportunity to be reciever king IMHO.
     
  13. Rob

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    Agree,

    Why should Denon only support thier flagship model ?

    I nearly bought an AVC A1D a couple of years ago." The ultimate home cinema machine, futureproof" according to the many reviews. Yes it was a good amp, but things change quickly, as we all know. The A10SE, and a couple of months later, the A1SE all claiming the same thing. (not to mention the AVR 3801/2/ and probably 3 etc.)

    It will be interesting to see how the upgrades are implemented and priced. Just feel sorry for the people who buy the latest models, while the replacements are in the shops, virtually within the time of the cheque clearing.

    Rob.
     
  14. uncle eric

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    I have heard (reliable) whispers of around 300 pounds for the upgrade, ouch. Seems they have us by the short and curlies. If we mean to live with the amp for some time, we will definately need to get it done (DPL11 is a must).
    If we are thinking about selling the SE, the first thing a prospective buyer will ask is "Has the Upgrade been done"

    Another thing I'm worried about is bugs in the software. Lets hope they dont screw up our machines.

    Eric
     
  15. nickeng

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    At least some of them can be upgraded my Pioneer 909THX, which when i got it was £1000 and 1 down from top of range.. Has a DB25 socket on the back for which the manual says "upgrades in the future"...

    Contacting Pioneer - they claim to know nothing about it..upgrades "no Sir none planned"


    aargggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
     
  16. Zog

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    Well done for not letting me down ! I was simply trying trying to get a bit of forthright advice and throwing in a bit of bait usually helps draw those out with something to say. (The two threads were supposed to be one but I think there is a restriction on the amount of text).
    The demo I listened to was seriously bobbins.
    Now I'm convinced so Santa will be getting me the 3802.
    Wanted to be extra carefull as my current set-up is based around Yammy DSP-A970 and if you are gonna condemn a component that cost you £900 to the spare room, you need to be 100% convinced.
    Now for the speakers ............ !!!!
     
  17. uncle eric

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    No problem. I think though, "DPL 11 opinions needed" would have been more productive (and friendly) than "Pants to DPL11.

    Eric
     
  18. Zog

    Zog
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    The problem though is that everbody has an opinion, but few have something worthwhile to say.
    Still now everbody is happy now.
     
  19. nickeng

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    I have A 970 also, although it is now a second system in the bedroom... Pioneer main room...The A970 was/is a great amp had mine from the day Yamaha brought it out..in uses almost every day since for what must be i guess 7 years..

    When my current round of house building is over it will be back in the living room in daily use leaving the Pioneer for my cinema room !

    Wont part with the 970...
     
  20. MarkB

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    Zog
    I think what you are getting at is the fact that you don't like the sound of PLII because it is processing.

    In an ideal world, all sound would be delivered to the amplifier as decoded MLP or DSD, but since this ideal is not (yet) possible with video we must come to a compromise. PLII simply tries to envelop you in sound in much the same way that Dolby Digital or DSD does, but from 2.0 channel sources. The same goes for dts:neo.

    This gives old films and TV programs a new lease of life in this digital world, and for that reason alone the system(s) should be commended and not criticised.

    I mean this in the best possible way but it sounds to me that you don't have the full picture on these processing systems.

    Mark
     
  21. MarkB

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    I believe that the upgrade of the AVC-A1SE is seen as a reward for those that have bought the flagship model of the company. I'm hoping that the company's DVD-A1 DVD player will also offer a full upgrade path.

    It is a good bet that the upgrade will be of a standard equal to the release of the original unit because the A1SE is being upgraded to become the new flagship model (AVC-A1SR or whatever).

    As for lower models getting upgrades – remember that the upgrade of the AVC-A1SE is a hardware upgrade and the inclusion of an RS232 port has nothing to do with it. I believe that very minor upgrades can be performed from the RS232 port (menu enhancements etc) but anything more will require a hardware upgrade.

    Also I suppose that Denon will see a good argument for people to spend £300 on a £2,500 amplifier (the new model will probably cost £2,700) and don’t see the same for the lower models.

    Mark
     
  22. Zog

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    MarkB not quite.
    What I was trying to establish was whether DPLII was worth having a large influence on my choice of amp. Many postings on here seemed to believe definitely so.
    However a demo conflicted with this.
    I then became suspicious that this might have been based purely on a nerd like obsession, that many people who frequent these boards often have, which dictates that they need every available gadget and format.
    I have a little more faith now in the views expressed and will seek out a decent demo.

    I'm not fully clued up on all the formats, but do know the differences between DPL, DPLII & DTS. I do though get a little confused with 6.1, 7.1 & THX. Not only with regards to true/processed format discussions, but also the speaker layouts.
     
  23. Rob

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    If you have heard PLII and can't hear any benefit from having it then why bother?

    Not everybody will have the same opinion. I dont agree with much of what is said here , I Just buy what I think is good. Pointless having it if you're not going to use it.
     
  24. MarkB

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    Good point by Rob.
    Zog, remember that no multichannel amplifier manufacturer would dare to release an amp/receiver/processor that did not have DPLII anyway, so it seems that the choice you'll have is weather you want the extended digital surround systems or not (dts ES, DD EX, dts 96/24 etc…) and this will dictate the unit you get.
    Weather these systems (and THX) are a gimmick is the same argument as for DPLII.
    mark
     
  25. Paul Smith

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    Zog,

    I would say that Pro-logic 2 would be a must nowadays, but only if you watch or listen to two channel sources (if you are a 'it's got to be a DVD and Digital or nothing' sort of person don't bother).
    I have lived with past Jim Fosgate creations such as Rock, 70mm and 6-Axis modes (all of them have had stereo surround channels ever since early '90s), and now I couldn't go back to plain old Pro-logic, even with THX de-correlation enabled.

    And as for

    'they need every available gadget and format'

    That's certainly not me I don't even have DTS (probably less than 5% of my DVD's are DTS so it wouldn't be much use if I had).

    Cheers,

    Paul Smith.
     
  26. MoonsSpawn

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    Sorry to disappoint you guys, but the upgrade for the Denon AVC A1SE is going to be £600 not £300 :(

    It should be going ahead any time between now and the begining of May.

    Steve.
     
  27. Guest

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    PL 11 is indeed a very good addition to any set up but I still think that many manufacturers are taking the proverbial with the costs of their upgrades.

    Looking at some of the charges on the TAG website I am surprised that they can justify them.

    Just over a year ago I purchased the wonderful Meridian 568. It had no THX EX. One month later I downloaded the upgrade from their website. FREE.

    Meridian were also the first to offer PL11. This too was downloadable, easilly installed, and once again FREE. Well done Meridian. I only wish that other manufacturers would follow suit and reward their customers loyalty without looking to profit from it at every opportunity.
     
  28. Bonesy

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    That would be me then. bought a denon for PLII and DTS discrete when I'd never heard either in action. I'd only seen the new logo on the front of the box in some pictures. Wanted to impress my mates, and was hopeful that they would offer some sort of increased audio enjoyment for the money.
    You should see the faces me and my mates' girlfriends pull when one of us ventures onto the topic of AV. absolutely hilarious.
    I must admit, I haven't got phantom menace yet, so the pod race isn't one of my demos, but Apoc Now Redux - blimey - the remastering of the helicopters in that is excellent, I borrowed it, and was so impressed I bought the disc. so I think rotors are making a comeback.

    Just bought a panny ae100 projector, without seeing a demo. bought the denon without a demo.

    So, do you think you get more or less enjoyment out of your system than I do?
     
  29. simon1

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    Have been reading the comments on here and found them very interesting. I note that most of you talk about amps costing £600 and over. So I wonder.....

    I was all set to buy Sony's 485 amp which is due out next month(virtually identical to the 475). Should I wait till June for the 585 which will feature DPL II? I mean, this amp is gonna sell for only £200ish (£40 more than 485), so is it going to sound that much better with the DPL II when its this cheap?

    Only have a small budget, and its got to be Sony to match in with everything else. Problem is patience, or lack of it. Do I wait that extra month?

    Thanks guys
     
  30. Rob

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    I personally enjoy demoing stuff. Thats not to say that I have never bought anything without trying it out first because I have, but its rare.

    I'm sure we all get a great deal of pleasure from our systems, but if I'm spending out hard earned cash, I want to know that its what I am looking for. I believe PLII is a great addition to any HC, but thats just my opinion. When listening to stereo or pro logic movie sountracks, the difference is startling. Pretty good on music as well.

    Regards Rob.
     

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