Projector upgrade: Sony VPL-VW790ES vs JVC DLNA-N7

tomdfrost

Active Member
It’s worth contacting the selling agent as it doesn’t look right and your screen can’t be that far out without it being massively different on both sides in terms of size and level.
No, that's what I thought. Luckily I've just borrowed a demo model, so it's not "mine", but you'd think they'd make sure the demo wasn't broken.
 

DB9S

Well-known Member
No, I'm not. I've reset the lens shift position to default and the projector is pointing at the middle of the screen. The top, and bottom lines are perfect position. The left and right lines are both slightly twisted, so they're parallel to each other but not the screen. They're probably 10mm to the right at the top compared to the bottom. I can't get my head around how to correct for that...

I didn't think that would be the issue though, we're not talking about a small amount out of focus, as you can see there's about a 5 pixel smear.
You really need to make sure the projector is entirely square to the screen before you critique the focus. the projector needs to be completely level on at least two axis before you do the small adjustments.
Can you take an images of the focus pattern and how it looks on your screen for us?
It will help with assessing if you do have a dodgy unit or not. :)
 

DB9S

Well-known Member
No, that's what I thought. Luckily I've just borrowed a demo model, so it's not "mine", but you'd think they'd make sure the demo wasn't broken.
Until we can see exactly how far out of true it may be, it is not easy to say if it is broken or not.
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
Can you take an images of the focus pattern and how it looks on your screen for us?
It will help with assessing if you do have a dodgy unit or not. :)
Here's the full screen, and close ups of the right, centre and left. The phone hasn't done a great job of showing the blur on the focus pattern, but you can see that the screen is pretty close to square. It looks like a slight parallelogram, and I've just measured corner to corner on my screen and it's that that's slightly out of square (366cm one diagonal, 369cm the other). So I think the projector is perfectly level.
Hopefully you can see from the Left.jpg that the focus pattern kind of double visions down and two the left. It's not just a simple out of focus blur, it's like like there's two clear images with a slight blur between them.
 

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alebonau

Well-known Member
Might be misinterpreting photos on phone , but That just looks misaligned to me ...

Narrow top ... wider bottom means projector is pointing down. A precision mount would have that dialed in with precision :D with a click/turn or two

Are you using feet to align ? Can be pita
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
Might be misinterpreting photos on phone , but That just looks misaligned to me ...

Narrow top ... wider bottom means projector is pointing down. A precision mount would have that dialed in with precision :D with a click/turn or two

Are you using feet to align ? Can be pita
Yeah, it's the phone that's making it look like that, I've just double checked and the top and bottom are the same length. It just looks wonky because the screen isn't perfectly square.

Here's a close up of the focus on the left compared to the right, the phone refuses to focus perfectly on the screen, but it's enough to get the idea. On the right those lines are actually pin sharp, on the left they're extremely not.

Focus.jpg


Thanks for spending your time on this btw, it's much appreciated.
 

alebonau

Well-known Member
Yeah, it's the phone that's making it look like that, I've just double checked and the top and bottom are the same length. It just looks wonky because the screen isn't perfectly square.
nope looking at 1st photo again... the left of it no mis interpretation on my part the top is narrow the bottom is wide... you can see the side bars at bottom and can see them at the top...

which means its not aligned properly ... the projector is pointing down in reference to the screen...

its quite possible screen is wonky... no idea what the screen is ...one of benefits of a drop down screen they drop to gravity... if its a fixed screen they can have bows in them and also if bolted to wall ... expect no wall to be square ... perpendicular... usually have to shim to get square flat etc. be amazed how houses are built ... i reckon to +/- an inch :D

dont even bother looking at anything within the external borders detail etc. till have those external borders squared up on the screen :)
 

alebonau

Well-known Member
looking carefully also think the screen is wonky...

id start with the screen on the wall... with a level... id make sure its actually flat square etc... as quite possible its not... use packers on back of screen to make sure... not relying on the wall which is likely wonky.
 

ask4me2

Active Member
First of all, I do not know this particular Sony projector model myself, but find this focus problem very strange.

Not sure it only can be some miss alignment between the screen and projector setup that causes this amount of uneven focus, especially if the information from an earlier post is correct.

tomdfrost said:
"I think it's a focus issue because if I hold a piece of paper up about 1.5m back from the screen the double vision seems to disappear."

if that is correct and there is as much as a 1.5-meter difference in the focus plane at that throw and screen size, I will say it is definitely something wrong with the optical parts in that projector.

I also find it alarming how the "bokeh" looks from these pictures. If that is what they looks like in real life at the screen and not caused by movement taking these pictures, a normal out-of-focus projected picture will not look that way because of some miss alignments between the screen and the projector.

Does this projector have some sort of sone convergence pixel alignment or something that can explain the double pixel view? That will not explain the 1.5-meter focus plane difference...
 
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tomdfrost

Active Member
nope looking at 1st photo again... the left of it no mis interpretation on my part the top is narrow the bottom is wide... you can see the side bars at bottom and can see them at the top...
This is just the angle of the photo, in real life I can see the same amount overhanging on the top right as the bottom left.
id start with the screen on the wall... with a level... id make sure its actually flat square etc... as quite possible its not... use packers on back of screen to make sure... not relying on the wall which is likely wonky.
It's an aluminium framed screen, I think I need to get it off the wall and see if I can adjust it to be squarer, but I don't think that's the cause of the issues with the focus.
if that is correct and there is as much as a 1.5-meter difference in the focus plane at that throw and screen size, I will say it is definitely something wrong with the optical parts in that projector.
Yes, this is why I don't think it's the screen that's the issue. If I take a bit of card and hold it in front of that part of the image I can twist and rotate it about and it still looks the same, I do indeed need to come about 1.5m away from the screen to get it looking anywhere near as close to the focus of the right hand side of the screen.
I also find it alarming how the "bokeh" looks from these pictures. If that is what they looks like in real life at the screen and not caused by movement taking these pictures, a normal out-of-focus projected picture will not look that way because of some miss alignments between the screen and the projector.

Does this projector have some sort of sone convergence pixel alignment or something that can explain the double pixel view? That will not explain the 1.5-meter focus plane difference...
The photos are a bit out of focus, but it is representative of the difference, as you say it's kind of like the effect of taking a photo while moving, that is how it looks.
The projector has a feature where you can align the red and blue components across multiple squares on the screen, but that seems to sort chromatic aberration, it doesn't effect the focus. If someone how there has one of these models and knows of another adjustment I'd love to hear about it.

I also find it strange that it's not like it gradually goes out of focus as it goes across the screen. It's very sharp for the right hand 75% of the screen, then goes wildly out in the last 25%.
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
I've set up a special pixel grid test just for testing this and it shows the problem very well. I've attached the original pixel grid, it has some single pixel ticks with a 1 pixel vertical line. And a few boxes of increasing size, starting with a 1px middle, then a 2x2px, then a 3x3px... Both black on white and white on black.

You can see in CentrePixelGrid.jpg that it's pretty good, not perfectly sharp, but sharp enough for real world use.
On LeftPixelGrid.jpg you can see the smeary effect, that looks like I've moved the camera while taking the shot, I haven't.
On LeftPixelGridBack2m.jpg I'm holding up a white piece of worktop 2m closer to the projector, obviously it's not a good surface to project on, but you can see that the smear is significantly reduced. Interestingly if I do the same on the centre and right side of the screen it still looks pretty sharp, so it feels like there's a lot of leeway to get adequate focus on the whole.

Edit: Pictures didn't seem to upload first time.
 

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alebonau

Well-known Member
The photos are a bit out of focus, but it is representative of the difference, as you say it's kind of like the effect of taking a photo while moving, that is how it looks.
The projector has a feature where you can align the red and blue components across multiple squares on the screen, but that seems to sort chromatic aberration, it doesn't effect the focus. If someone how there has one of these models and knows of another adjustment I'd love to hear about it.
the projector as you have it looks completely out of whack to the screen and also its leaving me wondering if the screen is square or flat ? I wouldn't even start to do any panel alignment if you havent got the projector squared upto screen. definitely start there.

Id suggest start with screen make sure its level and vertical - vs earth :D (using spirit level) as the house/wall is going to be what ever...

then work with the projector get it level and perpendicular with the screen(with spirit level). can then make smaller adjustment with feet or mount or what ever you are using to locate the projector.

once you actually have the screen square with the projector and projecting a square image ... ie not wonky... would i worry about any panel miss alignment. and truthfully id do focus and unlesss any mis alignment is visible from main viewing position i would leave well alone.

not being a 3 chip machine there will 100% be some mis alignment you have to be very careful with mis alignment adjustments not only with the damage can do potentially with picture the also be aware things like focus and panel mis alignment at pixel level you should only look at once projector is warmed up ... id suggest 1 hour after projector is switched on....
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
once you actually have the screen square with the projector and projecting a square image ... ie not wonky... would i worry about any panel miss alignment. and truthfully id do focus and unlesss any mis alignment is visible from main viewing position i would leave well alone.
I'm pretty confident that the projector is projecting a square image. The issue you're seeing is my screen, it's a slight parallelogram. And as I said earlier, I can twist an move the "screen" around a lot and the image looks the same.

It's very much a problem from viewing position, attached is this very forum shown in the centre compared to the left. As you can see, on the left it's almost totally unreadable, and that's at quite a large font size, when I'm actually using it for work I normally have the font smaller than that.
 

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alebonau

Well-known Member
I'm pretty confident that the projector is projecting a square image. The issue you're seeing is my screen, it's a slight parallelogram. And as I said earlier, I can twist an move the "screen" around a lot and the image looks the same.

It's very much a problem from viewing position, attached is this very forum shown in the centre compared to the left. As you can see, on the left it's almost totally unreadable, and that's at quite a large font size, when I'm actually using it for work I normally have the font smaller than that.
nope not as i see it, the projected image does not look not square at all to me and a long way off ! ... the projection guides are not even lined up with the screen remotely ? I can see the edges of the screen but not the projection guides being projected...also the projected guidelines are clearly out of whack in reference to the screen borders and by a long way.

1621239779607.png


I see this as quite basics to get right before start looking at anything in the screen projected image...but i will leave it there as enough said and clearly have another view on this so will leave there :)
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
nope not as i see it, the projected image does not look not square at all to me and a long way off ! ... the projection guides are not even lined up with the screen remotely ?
I wonder if we're looking at different things. The projector is projecting wider than the 16:9 screen because the pattern projects at 4096x2160, whereas the screen only shows 3840x2160. That's why there's a lot green beyond the sides of the screen.

I've taken another picture from the front centre of the screen so hopefully it's a bit clearer. You should see that the top and bottom green lines are perfectly along the top and bottom of the screen (Because the screen and projector are both level to gravity). But because the screen isn't quite square the edges the verticals don't quite meet the corners. I've included a snap of how the extra 256 pixels overhang the sides and you can see there's the same amount of overhang at the top right and the bottom left. I've also done a sketch of what I mean.

Is that your understanding of what you're seeing or were you thinking the outside green lines should be within the frame? Unfortunately there's not much I can do about the not square screen, but luckily it's only a few pixels in the corner that go in to the felt so it's not an issue in the real world. It's always been like that and never bothered me.
 

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alebonau

Well-known Member
Hi Tom see below, am talking about the projected screen guides not square with the screen frame ?

hopefully can see the dotted lines disappearing ? on the red highlighted areas ... tells me not lined up properly ? or its physically distorting the image... for an image to be wider in any part its titled towards that part... to be narrower in any part its tilted away from that part ...


Screen.jpg
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
Hi Tom see below, am talking about the projected screen guides not square with the screen frame ?

hopefully can see the dotted lines disappearing ? on the red highlighted areas ... tells me not lined up properly ? or its physically distorting the image... for an image to be wider in any part its titled towards that part... to be narrower in any part its tilted away from that part ...


View attachment 1513287
That's the screen itself, if you look at PictureRepresentation.png on my previous post hopefully that makes it clear. The projected image is level with gravity and the screen, and each corner is 90 degrees. But the screen it's projecting on to is does not have 90 degree corners, they're close, but not perfect. The diagonal lengths of the screen are 3cm different.

As you say, if the projector was tilted you'd get a trapezoid shape, and the lines would be going out in opposite directions, and either the top or bottom would be wider than the other. That's not the case here, the top and bottoms are the same width. I don't think there's any way you'd get a parallelogram shown above via distortion. It could only be rotated or trapezoid.
 

alebonau

Well-known Member
I dont know about you.... but that would drive me batty :D it could be your screen itself is curled(away from wall in those two areas.... ?

I guess point am trying to suggest is worth getting the projected image right without distortions before casting a critical eye geometrically over the image and looking at things like focus and alignment and such as these can be thrown out of whack de to above... but you are best placed there to make a judgement ... it isnt your projector just a loaner... so i wouldn't waste too much more time with it if feel something wrong ... let retailer know let them swap it if need be or move on .... particularly if not seeing same with that ever were projecting with before :)
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
I dont know about you.... but that would drive me batty :D it could be your screen itself is curled(away from wall in those two areas.... ?

I guess point am trying to suggest is worth getting the projected image right without distortions before casting a critical eye geometrically over the image and looking at things like focus and alignment and such as these can be thrown out of whack de to above... but you are best placed there to make a judgement ... it isnt your projector just a loaner... so i wouldn't waste too much more time with it if feel something wrong ... let retailer know let them swap it if need be or move on .... particularly if not seeing same with that ever were projecting with before :)
No, the screen is flat, it's just wonky, the fabric is stretched over an aluminium frame, and that frame hasn't got right angles in the corners. But as I say, when actually using it you can't notice it, the few pixels that end up on the black felt just disappear. The previous projector filled the screen in exactly the same way, but it didn't have the weird focus issue. So essentially there's no "distortion" from the room setup, there's just a few pixels hidden in two of the corners. (I could zoom in slightly and lose no pixels, but then I'd have a white border around it and that's probably worse)

It's taken a couple of months to be able to get this projector on loan, apparently it's the highest value item they've ever loaned out, and they had to get a demo model shipped in direct from Sony, so I don't expect it's a case of just swapping it out.

So I suppose my question is has anyone else with this projector managed to get it in focus, or has anyone else seen a similar thing and found a way of rectifying it?
 

DB9S

Well-known Member
First, make sure you screen is square. That is a prerequisite to me.
Then you need to use a spirit level on the projector to make sure that it is perfectly level, front to back and side to side.
Then you need to zoom out until the entire focus pattern is a little inside the screen border and then use physical twisting on the mount until the left and right sides are parallel and square to the screen edge. All the while making sure the projector remains plumb.
Then once that is done you would use the zoom and shift controls to align the screen to its final place.
It can be time consuming but it is pretty simple and you will deffo benefit from another body near the screen to call out how it is looking as you go. :)
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
First, make sure you screen is square. That is a prerequisite to me.
Then you need to use a spirit level on the projector to make sure that it is perfectly level, front to back and side to side.
Then you need to zoom out until the entire focus pattern is a little inside the screen border and then use physical twisting on the mount until the left and right sides are parallel and square to the screen edge. All the while making sure the projector remains plumb.
Then once that is done you would use the zoom and shift controls to align the screen to its final place.
It can be time consuming but it is pretty simple and you will deffo benefit from another body near the screen to call out how it is looking as you go. :)
Unfortunately in this case the screen shape is the screen shape, it's a giant piece of metal that's glued and screwed in place so there's nothing I can do about that.
The top of it, and the top of the projector are all level. If I twist the projector to make the sides line up then the top and the bottom will go out, and being the longer dimension they go out a lot more. You can also see it with your eye then, the picture looks rotated because it's not parallel to the ceiling.
 

DB9S

Well-known Member
Unfortunately in this case the screen shape is the screen shape, it's a giant piece of metal that's glued and screwed in place so there's nothing I can do about that.
The top of it, and the top of the projector are all level. If I twist the projector to make the sides line up then the top and the bottom will go out, and being the longer dimension they go out a lot more. You can also see it with your eye then, the picture looks rotated because it's not parallel to the ceiling.
Okay, so it appears that you have quite a job on your hands. The only way to know if the unit has dodgy optics is to find a completely square and flat surface to projrct onto, making sure the projector is exactly square on to it.
From what you said I would align the sides correctly and then twist the projector left or right until the top and bottom do line up and then use lens shift etc to fill the screen.
Where the image is smaller means the projector lens is closer to the screen than the other side. So if the left was smaller than the right, you would twist the projector towards the left (as viewed from behind the projector) to equalise the sizes. Once square on all four sides, then use the lens shift alone to line it up.
Good luck.
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
Okay, so it appears that you have quite a job on your hands. The only way to know if the unit has dodgy optics is to find a completely square and flat surface to projrct onto, making sure the projector is exactly square on to it.
From what you said I would align the sides correctly and then twist the projector left or right until the top and bottom do line up and then use lens shift etc to fill the screen.
Where the image is smaller means the projector lens is closer to the screen than the other side. So if the left was smaller than the right, you would twist the projector towards the left (as viewed from behind the projector) to equalise the sizes. Once square on all four sides, then use the lens shift alone to line it up.
Good luck.
I don't think this will work, if I rotate the projector to get the sides lines up the the top and bottom go off in the exact same way. Neither the left of right side are bigger than the other, they're the same size, just offset. The screen I'm projecting on to is flat, so although the border felt is in the wrong place the surface is exactly the same as if it wasn't. I've just double checked myself by measuringthe distance from the centre of the bulb to each of the four corners of the projected image and they're the same distance. The horizontal lens shift amount is 0, so we're definitely facing it horizontally, and the length of the edges of the image are all the same as each other, so there's no trapezoiding. I'm 100% certain it's a square image on a flat surface.

Even if I can't get it perfectly in focus over the whole screen, if I can get it so that a pixel doesn't take up more than 2 pixels space then everything will be readable. At the moment I'd guess it's about 5 pixels out.
 

DB9S

Well-known Member
I don't think this will work, if I rotate the projector to get the sides lines up the the top and bottom go off in the exact same way. Neither the left of right side are bigger than the other, they're the same size, just offset. The screen I'm projecting on to is flat, so although the border felt is in the wrong place the surface is exactly the same as if it wasn't. I've just double checked myself by measuringthe distance from the centre of the bulb to each of the four corners of the projected image and they're the same distance. The horizontal lens shift amount is 0, so we're definitely facing it horizontally, and the length of the edges of the image are all the same as each other, so there's no trapezoiding. I'm 100% certain it's a square image on a flat surface.

Even if I can't get it perfectly in focus over the whole screen, if I can get it so that a pixel doesn't take up more than 2 pixels space then everything will be readable. At the moment I'd guess it's about 5 pixels out.
Something is not square that is for sure. It might be worth you going back to the dealer with it and seeing how it looks in their screen. There is every possibility that the optics are out of whack, but a 'known good' screen is required to test.
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
Something is not square that is for sure.
Yeah, I know exactly what's not square, it's the screen, the corners aren't right angles so it makes a parallelogram instead of a rectangle. But I don't believe that's got anything to do with the focussing, as I said, I can take a bit of white card and move it all around the room and see how the focus changes in 3d space, and the right side is clear everywhere within 2m of the screen, at any angle, the left side is smeared within 2m of the screen.
 

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