Projector upgrade: Sony VPL-VW790ES vs JVC DLNA-N7

DB9S

Well-known Member
Yep, everything is 4K.

I didn't think outputting 0-255 would be an issue, cause that can be converted within the media player software.

But I wasn't aware of [email protected] being a problem, I'm now wondering if that's the issue I'm hitting, rather than a cable problem, on the PC anyway. On the PS5 that's a much shorter run but I'm still having issues: PS5 -> Projector works. Chromecast -> Splitter -> Projector works. PS5 -> Splitter -> Projector doesn't work. So it feels like cables individually work, but not when all together.
The PS5 will be outputting YCbCr as standard via HDMI as it is expecting to be connected to a TV not a monitor. Your splitters may not be capable of full fat 18Gbp signals either. You need to go over each bit of kit tooth and nail to weed out those that are no longer fit for purpose and those that work okay.
Change the PC output to YCbCr 8 bit to get a signal and then work up one change at a time to see where it fails, it will be a good pointer.
I am still shuddering at all the cables and boxes involved.
I have my sources to my AVR and then one cable to my projector. Even that can be troublesome!
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
This is the splitter I'm using: Amazon product and it will pass full fat HDR content from a Chromecast ok, so I think it's capable. When I connect the PS5 via the splitter you can hear it boot up over the speakers, then reboot again 3 seconds later, while the HDMI signal looks like it's trying to handshake.

The whole cable story is so much worse than I've described :) I also have multiple soundcards putting out audio cables to different things too (bass shakers in the sofa, and to a racing seat). And sensor cables for various bits of VR kit.
I don't think I can simplify it though with my various inputs and outputs, and different locations for everything.
 

DB9S

Well-known Member
Yep, everything is 4K.

I didn't think outputting 0-255 would be an issue, cause that can be converted within the media player software.

But I wasn't aware of [email protected] being a problem,
0-255 in itself wont be an issue but the image may look washed out unless you set your projector to match it in the HDMI menu. (Full Dynamic range).

As for RGB, it is equivalent to YCbCr 4:4:4 and as such, over HDMI, it will only be accepted if at 8bit. Even when everything is set to full fat too, as RGB/4:4:4 60hz uses the entire bandwidth even in 8bit.
RGB or 4:4:4 in 10 or 12bit at a frequency over 30hz is not a 'legal' HDMI signal. It simply will not work as it is too fat to fit down even an 18Gbps pipe.
 
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DB9S

Well-known Member
This is the splitter I'm using: Amazon product and it will pass full fat HDR content from a Chromecast ok, so I think it's capable. When I connect the PS5 via the splitter you can hear it boot up over the speakers, then reboot again 3 seconds later, while the HDMI signal looks like it's trying to handshake.

The whole cable story is so much worse than I've described :) I also have multiple soundcards putting out audio cables to different things too (bass shakers in the sofa, and to a racing seat). And sensor cables for various bits of VR kit.
I don't think I can simplify it though with my various inputs and outputs, and different locations for everything.
HOLY CRAP. :eek: Sorry, but you may have your work cut out there then!
Your new projector will only accept 'legal' and pristine signals. All others will likely fail (no signal at all, give snow or dropouts).
The projector has become the standard to which all your other kit now needs to meet.
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
Yep, everything is 4K.

I didn't think outputting 0-255 would be an issue, cause that can be converted within the media player software.

But I wasn't aware of [email protected] being a problem, I'm now wondering if that's the issue I'm hitting, rather than a cable problem, on the PC anyway. On the PS5 that's a much shorter run but I'm still having issues: PS5 -> Projector works. Chromecast -> Splitter -> Projector works. PS5 -> Splitter -> Projector doesn't work. So it feels like cables individually work, but not when all together.
This sounds like a disaster for getting a stable HDMI signal. It’s bad enough going through a decent processor with a stable hdmi board, or through a high end VP like a lumagen. Even these have issues, but yours sounds like you’ll always be chasing your tail hoping the picture may appear and stay stable......

Good luck though.

For testing for this PJ (or any other high end PJ), you really need to try and go direct from source to the PJ.
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
I'm making some progress. I've found a cable that seems to work for everything!
Chromecast & PS5 -> Splitter -> Projector work, and they're transmitting at YCbCr 4:2:2 BT 2020
PC -> Spliiter -> Projector on same cable works when outputting YCbCr422 at 8-12 bit and RGB 8 bit all at 60hz. And YCbCr444 at 8 bit and RGB 8 bit with HDR on, all at 60hz.

So that all ties in with what DB9S says. Now I just need to work my way back through the kit to see where the weak spot is. My guess is the cable from the pc to the splitter, the most akward one to replace, so would be typical.

How will image quality vary between [email protected] bit and [email protected] bit, is there a preference?
 

DB9S

Well-known Member
I'm making some progress. I've found a cable that seems to work for everything!
Chromecast & PS5 -> Splitter -> Projector work, and they're transmitting at YCbCr 4:2:2 BT 2020
PC -> Spliiter -> Projector on same cable works when outputting YCbCr422 at 8-12 bit and RGB 8 bit all at 60hz. And YCbCr444 at 8 bit and RGB 8 bit with HDR on, all at 60hz.

So that all ties in with what DB9S says. Now I just need to work my way back through the kit to see where the weak spot is. My guess is the cable from the pc to the splitter, the most akward one to replace, so would be typical.

How will image quality vary between [email protected] bit and [email protected] bit, is there a preference?
As far as the projector is concerned, they will both work okay, but 4:2:2 12bit @60hz is THE best signal that HDMI 2 will pass. RGB or 4:4:4 at 60hz will HAVE to be 8bit, there is no choice without exceeding 18Gbps. Which won't be happening.

If you narrow it down to one cable, you have done well.
I do not envy you that nest of cables and boxes whatsoever though! So many Potential Points Of Failure. Even if it is all working now, any single part of all those cables and bits of kit can fail at any point.
It may never fail, but that is why it is called potential points of failure. ;):D
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
So do you think the extra bits justify the loss in resolution? I'm guessing the answer might be for PC work no, for films yes.

I've got one cable I trust, the input splitter seems to be fine, I'm now thinking it's the output splitter that's the issue. Am currently up and down to the loft swapping things over, not much fun!

If there's another way of connecting 3 inputs to 3 outputs and splitting out the audio into optical format I'm all ears :)
 

DB9S

Well-known Member
So do you think the extra bits justify the loss in resolution? I'm guessing the answer might be for PC work no, for films yes.

I've got one cable I trust, the input splitter seems to be fine, I'm now thinking it's the output splitter that's the issue. Am currently up and down to the loft swapping things over, not much fun!

If there's another way of connecting 3 inputs to 3 outputs and splitting out the audio into optical format I'm all ears :)
I think you hit the nail on the head there. RGB is preferable for desktop use just due to the better presented text if nothing else and 12 bit 4:2:2 will be great for films. Although setting to 10 bit can give better gradations bizarrely.
Well, the projector has two inputs so you could use that route for the one thing that you determine absolutely needs the best signal. Then that is one splitter port not needed.
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
I think you hit the nail on the head there. RGB is preferable for desktop use just due to the better presented text if nothing else and 12 bit 4:2:2 will be great for films.
Well, the projector has two inputs so you could use that route for the one thing that you determine absolutely needs the best signal. Then that is one splitter port not needed.
That would work for video, but not audio, the splitter is taking the audio stream out of the hdmi cables and sending it to my speakers via an optical cable. I suppose it's kind of behaving as an amp.

I've definitely isolated the 4 way splitter as an issue, I've bought it out of the loft and connected up a shorter cable on the input side and it still don't go higher than 30hz. What I don't understand is why it doesn't work with 4:2:0 at 8 bit, presumably that's what it would have been on the 260ES? Why would plugging in a different output device stop it working with the same bandwidth requirement?
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
I left the room for a while, came back, and now I have a picture. My current 4 way splitter DOES work at 4:2:0 at 8bit 60hz. Any higher and it outputs nothing, so I think that's my big limiting factor that needs the first replacement. Now who can recommend a 3 way or more splitter that will take mega bandwidth?
 

DB9S

Well-known Member
That would work for video, but not audio, the splitter is taking the audio stream out of the hdmi cables and sending it to my speakers via an optical cable. I suppose it's kind of behaving as an amp.

I've definitely isolated the 4 way splitter as an issue, I've bought it out of the loft and connected up a shorter cable on the input side and it still don't go higher than 30hz. What I don't understand is why it doesn't work with 4:2:0 at 8 bit, presumably that's what it would have been on the 260ES? Why would plugging in a different output device stop it working with the same bandwidth requirement?
Splitters...
A big pain in the bum. Just because it is said to work at for a certain signal doesn't mean it will.
An HDFury device will sort out hdmi headaches and will allow the separation of video and audio too. Not to mention Dolby Vision. It's web based config screen is a huge help too.
The accepted 4k 60hz 10bit signals but converted then internally to 8bit due to processing limitations. Maybe the splitter has developed a fault?
 

DB9S

Well-known Member
I left the room for a while, came back, and now I have a picture. My current 4 way splitter DOES work at 4:2:0 at 8bit 60hz. Any higher and it outputs nothing, so I think that's my big limiting factor that needs the first replacement. Now who can recommend a 3 way or more splitter that will take mega bandwidth?
An HD Fury vertex 2 will matrix or split inputs to its 4 outputs. Plus it can spoof edids (which coincidentally allows DV to be displayed if you wish) and can cure any hdmi hdcp headache and has great support. Full on 18Gbps bandwidth too.
4K Vertex2 18Gbps | HDFury.com | Connect and Fix everything in HDMI
 

DB9S

Well-known Member
I left the room for a while, came back, and now I have a picture. My current 4 way splitter DOES work at 4:2:0 at 8bit 60hz. Any higher and it outputs nothing
Looks like it is only hdmi 1.4/hdcp 1.4 then. 10.2Gbps.
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
This is the one I currently have: Amazon productIt COULD be a fault, I've had one die on me before, but that was completely dead.
Reading the instructions technically it does do [email protected] as it says, just not the bit rate I want, or with HDR.

I'll have a look into the Fury, it's a lot more money, but if I'm about to spend £12k on a projector it doesn't seem like as much of a big deal.
 

DB9S

Well-known Member
This is the one I currently have: Amazon productIt COULD be a fault, I've had one die on me before, but that was completely dead.
Reading the instructions technically it does do [email protected] as it says, just not the bit rate I want, or with HDR.

I'll have a look into the Fury, it's a lot more money, but if I'm about to spend £12k on a projector it doesn't seem like as much of a big deal.
4k 60hz is very open as it will work on old 10.2Gbps kit. What hdcp version does the splitter support?
I have a Fury Vertex2 and it is a device you will wonder how you ever did without. It will do your splitter job and actively fix other stuff. It can convert hdcp and downscale and upscale. Getting LLDV to your pj is not to be sniffed at either. Best 300 odd quid I have spent in a while.
 

DB9S

Well-known Member
I wouldn't rely on any splitter that cost £23 for high quality and stable HDR 4k myself.
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
4k 60hz is very open as it will work on old 10.2Gbps kit. What hdcp version does the splitter support?
It claims HDMI 2.0 HDCP 2.2. But who knows the reality of these things!

The vertex looks like it might do the job, I'm not sure it can realistically replace both splitters without introducing even longer cabling than I have at the moment, due to having a pair of sources/inputs at opposite ends of the room, but if it just replaced the 4 way splitter then it would do the job.
I see it claims 4 inputs, you're saying you can change that to be one input and 3 outputs? Also, does it add any latency? Desktop work and games are a pain with lag.
 

DB9S

Well-known Member
It claims HDMI 2.0 HDCP 2.2. But who knows the reality of these things!

The vertex looks like it might do the job, I'm not sure it can realistically replace both splitters without introducing even longer cabling than I have at the moment, due to having a pair of sources/inputs at opposite ends of the room, but if it just replaced the 4 way splitter then it would do the job.
I see it claims 4 inputs, you're saying you can change that to be one input and 3 outputs? Also, does it add any latency? Desktop work and games are a pain with lag.
You can just use it to replace the dodgy splitter I would think.
You will be better off asking on the HDFury/Vertex2 thread about exactly how it can help you, but I swear by mine.:smashin:
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
I've managed to get a bunch of cables hooked up that work 99% of the time, certainly good enough for testing. I'm pretty impressed with it on a whole, for films colours do pop beautifully, and there's a certain solidity to the image that's hard to describe, but I didn't have it on the old projector.

I've got two problems at the moment; the projector is always projecting at 4096 pixels wide rather than a 3840 (ie there's a black border beyond the screen's edges. With bright scenes it's not noticeable, but in dark scenes I can see if very slightly lighting up the wall next the screen and it's quite distracting. Is there a standard way of dealing with this? I figure my old projector must have done it too, but I never noticed it before.

The second issue, and this one's a deal breaker, the image is pretty well in focus (a bit of chromatic aberration, but you can't see it unless you're really close) for the right three quarters of the screen, but left quarter of the screen has a kind of double vision, I think it's a focus issue because if I hold a piece of paper up about 1.5m back from the screen the double vision seems to disappear. I've moved an icon from one side of the screen to the other and taken a photo of each time so you can see what I mean:
FocusIssue.png

It's not a software issue because the projector focus pattern and menu are the same. Is this normal or have I been unlucky and got a faulty projector?
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
I've managed to get a bunch of cables hooked up that work 99% of the time, certainly good enough for testing. I'm pretty impressed with it on a whole, for films colours do pop beautifully, and there's a certain solidity to the image that's hard to describe, but I didn't have it on the old projector.

I've got two problems at the moment; the projector is always projecting at 4096 pixels wide rather than a 3840 (ie there's a black border beyond the screen's edges. With bright scenes it's not noticeable, but in dark scenes I can see if very slightly lighting up the wall next the screen and it's quite distracting. Is there a standard way of dealing with this? I figure my old projector must have done it too, but I never noticed it before.

The second issue, and this one's a deal breaker, the image is pretty well in focus (a bit of chromatic aberration, but you can't see it unless you're really close) for the right three quarters of the screen, but left quarter of the screen has a kind of double vision, I think it's a focus issue because if I hold a piece of paper up about 1.5m back from the screen the double vision seems to disappear. I've moved an icon from one side of the screen to the other and taken a photo of each time so you can see what I mean:View attachment 1513061
It's not a software issue because the projector focus pattern and menu are the same. Is this normal or have I been unlucky and got a faulty projector?
This looks really strange. Are you saying it’s in focus on both sides of the screen when viewing the internal test pattern but not when viewing through your PC?
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
This looks really strange. Are you saying it’s in focus on both sides of the screen when viewing the internal test pattern but not when viewing through your PC?
No, it's the same on the test pattern, the menu, and the PC, they're all consistent. In focus in the centre and right side of the screen, double vissioned on the left.
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
No, it's the same on the test pattern, the menu, and the PC, they're all consistent. In focus in the centre and right side of the screen, double vissioned on the left.
Obvious question but are you sure the projector is fully level in terms of left to right?
 

tomdfrost

Active Member
Obvious question but are you sure the projector is fully level in terms of left to right?
No, I'm not. I've reset the lens shift position to default and the projector is pointing at the middle of the screen. The top, and bottom lines are perfect position. The left and right lines are both slightly twisted, so they're parallel to each other but not the screen. They're probably 10mm to the right at the top compared to the bottom. I can't get my head around how to correct for that...

I didn't think that would be the issue though, we're not talking about a small amount out of focus, as you can see there's about a 5 pixel smear.
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
No, I'm not. I've reset the lens shift position to default and the projector is pointing at the middle of the screen. The top, and bottom lines are perfect position. The left and right lines are both slightly twisted, so they're parallel to each other but not the screen. They're probably 10mm to the right at the top compared to the bottom. I can't get my head around how to correct for that...

I didn't think that would be the issue though, we're not talking about a small amount out of focus, as you can see there's about a 5 pixel smear.
It’s worth contacting the selling agent as it doesn’t look right and your screen can’t be that far out without it being massively different on both sides in terms of size and level.
 

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