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Projector Recommendation

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by cessquill, Sep 7, 2000.

  1. cessquill

    cessquill
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    I'm looking at buying an LCD Projector, and I'm wondering whether anyone with the experience of owning one can offer the advice that brochures don't tell you.

    Ideally it would be the Sony (obviously), but I'm still not sure that I can stretch to that kind of cash.

    Also, I'm thinking that it might be overkill in my house - the rest of the gear is mid-range, and the room is not very large. I'm only looking at throwing the image about 10 feet at the most.

    I was wondering about the Tosiba MT1, and have seen rumours about this new Kodak V600, but it's the sort of thing where demos are all well and good, but I'd like some real-life advice.

    Thanks
     
  2. pop

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    Hi
    Forget LCD, GET an Ellie CRT,£3500 cannot be beat, my room is only 15x12 and after alot of demo-ing, for the cash i,and anyone who has seen mine, cannot fault it< unless they are mega nit picking, it is used for everyday tv, there is no need for a proper! tv.
     
  3. cessquill

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    Thanks pop

    I'd kind of ruled out CRT as overkill in my 12x12 room. But seeing as I was looking at the Sony LCD, £3500 shouldn't be too much.

    I take it that there's installation costs on top of that, plus what kind of screen did you go for?

    Oh well, guess I've got to go and find the cash now!
     
  4. LV426

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    The subject of LCD vs CRT is always emotive and results in comments like "forget LCD". The truth is that all systems have benefits and disadvantages, and, ultimately, you have to choose how to spend your cash.

    Before spending thousands, you should get as many demo's as you can, first to establish which system to use, and then to decide which model.

    I have a Sony VPL-VW10HT. I paid £4150 for it, from a supplier in Germany. I chose it after first discounting CRTs for the following reasons, none, some, or all of which might concern you - depending on your own priorities:

    1: CRTs require to be set up by an expert and, once done, cannot be moved without requiring the setup to be repeated. I gather it's about half a day's work for someone who knows what they're doing. LCDs on the other hand, are as easy to install as a slide projector.

    2: CRTs' convergence (the relative position of the three coloured components on the screen) drift out of adjustment over time and/or when the projector warms up and/or when subjected to extraneous magnetic fields, requiring to be setup again. LCDs do not.

    3: Some CRT setups suffer from a voltage regulation problem whereby the image size changes according to its brightness. You can see this on a regular TV. Example: watch MTV with a video with lots of brightness changes and/or flashing. Watch the MTV logo in the corner - see it move around. LCDs do not do this.

    4: Geometry - The image in a CRT set is initially formed by diverging a beam of electrons onto the face of a CRT and then using optics to project this. The initial picture is created magnetically and, depending on how well the circuitry can cope with variances in tube manufacture, may not result in truly straight edges, square squares and round circles. LCDs have near-perfect geometry.

    5: Black Levels. CRTs produce black by not emitting any light (i.e. true black). LCDs produce their image by shining a bright light through the LCD assembly. For black, the LCDs are nearly opaque - but not quite. So there is always some stray light leaking through. However, in cinemas, black is also produced by shining a bright light through nearly opaque material (the film). Also, your perception of black is not absolute - it is relative to lighter areas i.e., contrast. The Sony has the best contrast ratio of any LCD projector.

    Having discounted CRTs, I chose the Sony simply because it produces the best picture I have ever seen, anywhere. The coice was made easier by the fact that the Sony is the only TRUE 16:9 projector on the market.

    All I can say is, check one out for yourself before you decide, for yourself, whether to "forget LCD".

    ------------------
    You should not drink and bake.....
     
  5. Alan Westy

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    I am also in the market for a projector and have looked at both the Sony and several CRT models. At the moment I have almost certainly decided to buy a CRT model and after the last posting feel I should put forward some of the negatives of LCD projectors to counterbalance this argument.

    1. The average life of a CRT projector is 10,000 hours during this time the Sony will have had to have its lamp replaced at least 5 times even if run in cinema black mode. Add another £2000.00 for these lamp changes.

    2. All LCD projectors work on a fixed panel resolution meaning that to convert an image to the projectors native resolution digital artifacts are invariably produced. CRT projectors being analogue devices always display images in direct relation to the input.

    3. It is the black level that gives a perception of depth and although it is true that both film and LCD projectors shine a light through a medium the black level from film at the cinema is a lot blacker than the black levels achieved through LCD projectors.

    4. LCD projectors are also subject to more rapid degradation due to having to have ventilation fans which cool down the lamp. These fans bring in dust and because of the light path of a LCD compared with a CRT the light will shine through the dust on the LCD panel causing Blobs and shadowing.

    5. No possibility of dead pixels as CRT's are not made up of pixels

    6. You only have to look through the installation shown in HCC to see that the projector of choice for most high end installations is the CRT variety.

    If your main consideration is being able to move your projector around then go for a LCD otherwise CRT is the way to go.

     
  6. mart.stokes

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    Two EXCELLENT replies fom Alan and Nigel! Both to the point.

    CRT is certainly more cinematic but LCD is just so damned convenient, apart from lamp changes, a few dead pixels (maybe), a few warranty claims because of dust on the internal prism and the odd digital artifact (I tend to notice strange effects if I blink while watching an LCD produced picture, that may be my eyes though) I would go with LCD. I say "I" because if I had a CRT projector I would be messing all the while with geometry/convergence etc and my wife would end up divorcing me (it's bad enough me owning a rear projection TV).

    ------------------
    It's all very well in practice, but how's it going to work in theory.
     
  7. Arthur.S

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    As an owner of a CRT(Seleco 310) these are my views. I too did all the demos comparing CRT LCD & DLP. Yes,CRTs need expert setting up. Mine was done badly, but eventually put right by Chris Frost of OWL. They are inconvenient as they are fixed, but it's not true to say that if they get a knock, they need to be re-converged. Picture quality is far & away better than LCD or DLP. The fan noise on most CRT is less, although the Barco 701 was an exception to this!
    One problem which hasn't been mentioned so far is the cost of 'de-dusting' an LCD. Robert Shearer e-mailed me a while back enquiring as to the reliability of my 310. His current Sharp LCD costs £75 a time to get de-dusted every 6 months!
     
  8. cessquill

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    Some wonderful points to consider. Thanks guys.

    May main reasons for initally looking at LCD were:
    - Convenience. Being the more plug and playable of the formats, that appealed to me (especially since I can never decide on room layout, and it tends to change as I can afford to knock through and do all that major structural malarky.
    - I'd never had a projector before, and I was a little reluctant to dive straight in with with big boys. The rest of the gear is fairly modest, and the room is not the biggest. The screen (at the moment) is also going across the bay window, so I wasn't thinking of it being a replacement to my wonderful WEGA telly. Therefore, I wasn't sure how often I'd actually use it.
    - Until I'd heard of the Ellie, I had assumed they'd all be out of my financial league.

    Still, it's given me a lot to think about. I've had a demo of the Sony, and it blew my socks off (got so engrossed in the demo material that I forgot to audition the projector, so it must have been good!). Mind you, to be honest I don't really know what to look for. An up close look told me that it was good enough quality. Then again, that's coming from somebody who doesn't shut the curtains when the telly is glaring, so I guess there's a lot of "if that's how it's supposed to look then I'll watch that" about it.

    Am auditioning the Ellie tomorrow, and from what you guys have said it's hot stuff, so there's a voice in the back of my head that's saying "leave all of your credit cards at home" just incase!

    As I'm still new to this projector stuff though, I have to say there's an element of "go get a Sony CS1 for now and upgrade if you need to in a few years" about the whole thing. After all, it is a serious amount of cash for something that may turn out to be overkill in a small room like mine. Does anybody use a CS1?

    Thanks guys
    ---------
    Simon
    We're gonna need some more FBI guys.
     
  9. LV426

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    Just to respond to Alan Westy's (entirely valid) points

    1. The average life of a CRT projector is 10,000 hours during this time the Sony will have had to have its lamp replaced at least 5 times even if run in cinema black mode. Add another £2000.00 for these lamp changes.

    Agreed, but at the end of this time, the Sony would still be working. It may need another new lamp. BTW, I gather they can be obtained for about £200 (which makes £1000). How much are the repairs to, or replacement of, a CRT unit going to cost? Anyhow, if you watch on average one 2-hour film every day, it would take you 14 years to get to 10,000 hours. I'll probably have upgraded to whatever new and better technology is about, by then. My 2,000 hour lamp life will, at 2 hours' use per day, every day, last me for about 3 years.

    2. All LCD projectors work on a fixed panel resolution meaning that to convert an image to the projectors native resolution digital artifacts are invariably produced. CRT projectors being analogue devices always display images in direct relation to the input.

    True. However, the more pixels, the less of an issue this is. The Sony has more pixels than any other - 3x1 million. This means that whatever artefacts may be introduced are so small as to be invisible, even close up. Go and see for yourself. The Sony has an inbuilt line-doubler to minimise the effects of enlarging what is, after all, a very coarse signal. CRTs with line doublers are v.expensive, as are external line doublers.

    3. It is the black level that gives a perception of depth and although it is true that both film and LCD projectors shine a light through a medium the black level from film at the cinema is a lot blacker than the black levels achieved through LCD projectors.

    Probably true. But, I still maintain that the viewer's perception of black levels is more about the relative levels (contrast) than absolute values. You only have to watch a regular TV with some ambient light to destroy its absolute black. Most TV screens are a sort of dark Khaki colour when you see them unilluminated. But you see it as black when they are- because of the contrast.

    4. LCD projectors are also subject to more rapid degradation due to having to have ventilation fans which cool down the lamp. These fans bring in dust and because of the light path of a LCD compared with a CRT the light will shine through the dust on the LCD panel causing Blobs and shadowing.

    I had a Sony LCD back projection TV (KL37W2) for three years, during which time there was no picture degradation whatsoever due to the ingress of dust. The VPL-VW10HT has a filter on the air inlet. BTW, the fan on the VW10HT is virtually silent.

    5. No possibility of dead pixels as CRT's are not made up of pixels

    True. Mine has two. One of them is just visible at viewing distance only if you know where to look. The other isn't visible at all unless you get to within about 2 feet of my 8 foot screen. Each pixel is one millionth of the screen area ie absolutely tiny.

    6. You only have to look through the installation shown in HCC to see that the projector of choice for most high end installations is the CRT variety.

    Most were done before the 10HT was launched. Most cost several times what a VW10HT costs - they expend thousands on external line doublers and the like. Interestingly, I found this snippet on a forum dedicated to the VPL-VW10HT:

    << The renowned German magazine Video has reviewed the VW10HT.
    They are known for being very critical in their evaluations.
    Here is a summary of the article
    Highs:
    - 16:9 panels
    - High sharpness
    - Good contrast
    - Silent
    - Good keystone correction
    Lows:
    - Deep menu nesting

    Image quality
    -------------
    Sharpness: excellent
    Contrast: Very good
    Colour: Good
    Brightness: Very Good
    Movement artefacts (PAL): Very good
    Image harmony: Very Good
    Geometry and convergence: excellent
    Score: 50/60

    Ergonomics
    ----------
    Remote: Good
    Installation: Very good
    User friendliness: good
    Manual: good
    Score: 15/20

    Features:
    ---------
    Score: 18/20

    Total Score: 83/100 (the highest of all)
    Price/quality: good

    Article highlights:
    - best LCD on the market
    - Colour temperature calibration is a must
    - very good gamma processing
    - very stable and uniform image
    - home theatre at its best
    - sharpness and image stability is a lot better than comparable CRT projectors


    As a comparison, here are the scores of some competitors

    Davis DL450: 74/100 (image 44/60)
    Toshiba TLP-MT1 79/100 (image 46/50)
    CTX EZpro 610h: 65/100 (image 36/50)
    >>

    Once again, I recommend that you evaluate all technologies for yourself before you part with your cash. Everybody's opinions about the relative shortcomings of one thing or another vary hugely. Everybody's visual acuity differs. Mine would make geometry problems, varying image size, convergence errors (oh, and I forgot to mention in my other post, a 50hz refresh rate for PAL material - LCDs don't refresh like CRTs do so there is NO flicker at all, not even 100hz) a permanent annoyance.

    Perhaps you hit the nail on the head when you said that, in your Sony demo, you got so engrossed in the film, you forgot to evaluate the projector. That's exactly how it should be - the hardware should be transparent to the experience - you should never be aware of it.

    Happy shopping.


    ------------------
    You should not drink and bake.....
     
  10. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    >Just to respond to Alan Westy's (entirely valid) points
    1. The average life of a CRT projector is 10,000 hours during this time the Sony will have had to have its lamp replaced at least 5 times even if run in cinema black mode. Add another £2000.00 for these lamp changes.
    Agreed, but at the end of this time, the Sony would still be working. It may need another new lamp. BTW, I gather they can be obtained for about £200 (which makes £1000). How much are the repairs to, or replacement of, a CRT unit going to cost? Anyhow, if you watch on average one 2-hour film every day, it would take you 14 years to get to 10,000 hours. I'll probably have upgraded to whatever new and better technology is about, by then. My 2,000 hour lamp life will, at 2 hours' use per day, every day, last me for about 3 years. <

    CRT’s can last tens of thousands of hours when set up properly. Tube replacement costs around £500-£1000 each at present prices and it’s unlikely they will all fail at the same time. I would be interested in where you can get replacement bulbs for the Sony at that price as it’s significantly cheaper than how much we buy them at trade from the distributor…. I believe you though,


    >2. All LCD projectors work on a fixed panel resolution meaning that to convert an image to the projectors native resolution digital artifacts are invariably produced. CRT projectors being analogue devices always display images in direct relation to the input.
    True. However, the more pixels, the less of an issue this is. <

    Actually the more pixels the harder the scaler has to work to interpolate exactly what colour each pixel should be and the more likely that there’s going to be artifacts produced. Although the fact that the pixels are so small on this model does mean that the “chicken wire effect” is not visible at all.


    >The Sony has an inbuilt line-doubler to minimise the effects of enlarging what is, after all, a very coarse signal.<

    The Sony has a scaler built in. It does two jobs De-interlaces the incoming video signal to progressive scan and then scales the image to match the native resolution of the panel. The scaler within the Sony is pretty good. The de-interlacing circuit isn’t so good.

    >CRTs with line doublers are v.expensive, as are external line doublers. <

    The ELLIE would appear to be the exception to the rule then. Great line doublers/scalers that work with PAL and NTSC are expensive but one of the best line doublers available is the DVDo ISCAN it’s possible to buy this for $599 or less unfortunately it’s an NTSC only device.

    >3. It is the black level that gives a perception of depth and although it is true that both film and LCD projectors shine a light through a medium the black level from film at the cinema is a lot blacker than the black levels achieved through LCD projectors.<

    I’m not convinced about this. I find the level of black at the cinema’s in Glasgow pretty appalling. That could be because they leave the ….Lights on down the aisles though! The first thing I noticed about the VPL10 when we replaced our Sony400 was that the black level was better on the old model. However, everything else was miles better on the new one. So much so that I would rather have watched the new one regardless of this “problem”


    >4. LCD projectors are also subject to more rapid degradation due to having to have ventilation fans which cool down the lamp. These fans bring in dust and because of the light path of a LCD compared with a CRT the light will shine through the dust on the LCD panel causing Blobs and shadowing.
    I had a Sony LCD back projection TV (KL37W2) for three years, during which time there was no picture degradation whatsoever due to the ingress of dust. The VPL-VW10HT has a filter on the air inlet. BTW, the fan on the VW10HT is virtually silent. <

    All LCD projectors can suffer from the blob problem. You were lucky to have no noticeable degradation on your rear projection set.

    >5. No possibility of dead pixels as CRT's are not made up of pixels
    True. Mine has two. One of them is just visible at viewing distance only if you know where to look. The other isn't visible at all unless you get to within about 2 feet of my 8 foot screen. Each pixel is one millionth of the screen area ie absolutely tiny. <

    I think you would have to be extremely unlucky to be able to see dropped pixels from your seating position with this model. You’d need to have a few beside each other and they’d probably have to be green or red.

    >6. You only have to look through the installation shown in HCC to see that the projector of choice for most high end installations is the CRT variety.
    Most were done before the 10HT was launched. Most cost several times what a VW10HT costs - they expend thousands on external line doublers and the like. <

    Most CRT projectors featured in HCC are Seleco 400 or 500’s. Their internal doublers retail for £600, not thousands. Neither cost several times what a Sony costs, although the 500 is probably double, fitted.



    >Once again, I recommend that you evaluate all technologies for yourself before you part with your cash. Everybody's opinions about the relative shortcomings of one thing or another vary hugely. Everybody's visual acuity differs. Mine would make geometry problems, varying image size, convergence errors (oh, and I forgot to mention in my other post, a 50hz refresh rate for PAL material - LCDs don't refresh like CRTs do so there is NO flicker at all, not even 100hz) a permanent annoyance.
    Perhaps you hit the nail on the head when you said that, in your Sony demo, you got so engrossed in the film, you forgot to evaluate the projector. That's exactly how it should be - the hardware should be transparent to the experience - you should never be aware of it. <

    Couldn’t agree more. The best way to choose a projector is to go and look at some.


    >Happy shopping.<

    And don’t forget to let us all know how you get on.


    ------------------
    StereoStereo
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  11. Rob

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    Not much to add to that really! exept to say as with everything , try before you buy. Once you have a CRT you will never look back. They might be more hassle to set up etc. but the good points far outway the bad. A couple of my friends have LCD & DLP models (not the new sony admittedly) and although they are ok, there is just no contest really! Audition and enjoy.
     
  12. Chris Frost

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    Oh blast, don't you just hate it when someone pips you to post (no pun intended)- Gordon. Oh well, I've spent the time typing it, so here goes...

    Quite an interesting debate. There have been some good points raised for the merits of both LCD and CRT technology. However, Nigel raised a few points that I feel need correcting.

    CRT tube life is not limited to 10,000 hours and the projector certainly won’t expire when it reaches this figure. This number is generally quoted by the tube manufacturers as a guide to how long the tube will stay within its performance tolerances. It is quite common for tubes to continue working well past 10,000 hrs, they just won’t put out as much light as when new.

    High-resolution LCD projectors do not automatically reduce artefacts. The quality of the Scaler (either built-in or external) is the main factor in reducing artefacts – not the panel resolution. The Sony VW10 uses a good quality built-in scaler (Pixelworks, I believe) but it is not immune to artefacts, it’s simply better than most other Home Theatre chip projectors.

    Black level is important. It will determine the ability of a projection system to produce a 3D image. I can demonstrate a CRT system for £9000 that outperforms cinema in terms of its ability to render an image with real depth. I am not aware of any home theatre LCD projector that can match this including the Sony.

    CRT projectors with line-doublers start at some very reasonable prices – the Ellie (as featured in the advertising banner in this forum) is about £3500, Seleco offer the new SVP450 at about £7000 and Barco can also supply a machine for about the same money. As for line-doublers/Scalers being expensive well again the facts prove otherwise. The DVDO line doubler sells for £700 (cheaper if you import it personally). The Quadscan Pro is a true Scaler offering Line Doubled, Tripled, Quadrupled, 480progressive, 600p & 768p and D-ILA output resolutions for £1850, which I think makes it exceptionally good value. Sure, if you want to spend a lot you can blow 26K on a Snell & Wilcox Interpolator.

    50Hz flicker is an issue with large screen TVs, but is less so with CRT projectors. As the image is drawn on a 7” diagonal screen using a high brightness phosphor display there is less image decay which means flicker is less noticeable despite the 50Hz frame rate.

    Just because an LCD rear projection TV (RPTV) didn’t suffer dust problems it doesn’t mean all LCD based products including projectors will be the same. LCD RPTVs use low power lamps operating in a reservoir of relatively clean air that circulates in the back of the TV. This means they generate less heat and so require less cooling than their front projection cousins. Less cooling means lower powered fans can be used resulting in lower volumes of air & dust being passed over the optical block thus reducing the chance of contamination. LCD projectors use high-powered lamps housed in a case that restricts air flow through a small filter. To keep the air flowing this filter has to have a course structure that allows air (and dust) to pass through easily. Sooner or later there will be dust contamination.

    Finally, HCC has featured many CRT installations (mostly Seleco) but I can’t recall any that “expend thousands on line-doublers”. To the best of my knowledge, almost all the featured installs used projectors with built-in line-doublers and some of these were completed after the arrival of the Sony VW10. As for the cost, yes the total install cost more than your Sony, Duh! They were building and equipping entire rooms, what do you expect? However, most of the projectors cost between £9,000 and £14,000 with their line-doublers. A little more than your Sony but not outrageously so if you ever experience the performance they offer.

    Nigel, I respect your decision to choose the VW10, it’s a good machine in its own right and has raised the performance bar for LCD projection. But please don’t discount other technologies, they might not be the best choice for you but other people take a different view. The best advice is go and try the systems for yourself.

    Chris Frost
    Regional Sales Manager - N.England & Scotland
    Owl Video Systems Ltd www.owl-video.co.uk
     
  13. LV426

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    I hadn't intended to contribute any more to this thread, as I think all ground has been covered. However, I can't help myself from responding to Chris Frost's post.

    <<CRT tube life is not limited to 10,000 hours and the projector certainly won't expire when it reaches this figure.>>

    Actually, my point was that this is likely to be academic. If you, on average, watch a 2-hour film every day, then you'd be using the same projector after 14 years. In reality, I'd suggest that most people will (a) watch less than this, and (b) replace their hardware before then, anyway.

    << High-resolution LCD projectors do not automatically reduce artefacts.>>

    I stand corrected.

    <<Black level is important.>>

    I maintain this is subjective. It will matter to some people more than others.

    <<CRT projectors with line-doublers start at some very reasonable prices…>>

    I stand corrected.

    <<50Hz flicker is an issue with large screen TVs, but is less so with CRT projectors.>>

    Maybe true. However, every CRT setup I've ever auditioned had image flicker which I found intrusive. I'm one of the 10% of people who can see image flicker (e.g., on a PC monitor) up to somewhere between 60 and 70hz

    <<Just because an LCD rear projection TV (RPTV) didn't suffer dust problems it doesn't mean all LCD based products including projectors will be the same.>>

    Can neither confirm nor deny. I only have my own experiences to guide me.

    <<Finally, HCC has featured many CRT installations (mostly Seleco)……. most of the projectors cost between £9,000 and £14,000 with their line-doublers. A little more than your Sony……>>

    A little more (than £4150)?

    <<Nigel, I respect your decision to choose the VW10, it's a good machine in its own right and has raised the performance bar for LCD projection.>>

    Thanks. I agree, and I'm wholly satisfied.

    << But please don't discount other technologies, they might not be the best choice for you but other people take a different view. The best advice is go and try the systems for yourself.>>

    I think I said that, twice. If you re-read my first post in this thread, you'll see that my purpose in contributing was to suggest to <<cessquill>> that the view from <<pop>> to "forget LCD" was equally invalid as one which might have said "forget CRT", in other words to try and introduce some balance to the debate.

    Both technologies have advantages and disadvantages and which you choose depends on your own opinion, visual acuity, and other factors (like whether or not you want to take it round to grandma's at the weekend).


    ------------------
    You should not drink and bake.....

    [This message has been edited by nigel (edited 10-09-2000).]
     
  14. Gordon @ Convergent AV

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    Just one last thing to put straight with Nigel, Chris and my own discourse.

    Nigel <A little more (than £4150)?>

    This is a personal import price for this model. Chris was quoting UK retail for Seleco. You can, if you wish, personally import Seleco CRT's or Barco, or Sony for substantially less thatn UK retail as with the VPW10.

    When you put it at £6000 retail for a Sony with their, rather poor ceiling mount and compare it to the Seleco UK retail the difference is getting smaller. Obviously without the ceiling mount you're at £5700 but even that's alot closer.

    Incidentally, that price is less than we buy the Sony's from the UK distributor....

    Gordon



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  15. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
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    Gordon,
    The best price I've seen in the UK for the 10HT is £4500, most others seem to be between £5000 and £5500. I'm amazed at the price difference - its even more ridiculous if as you say the UK retailers can't even buy them cheaper from Sony than a determined individual could if they imported one from mainland Europe!

    Rip-off Britain strikes again!
    Paul
     
  16. cessquill

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    Well, I've just got back from auditioning the Ellie, and have caught up reading the posts.

    All I can say is WOW!

    For the £3500 ish (plus installation), I can't think of anything that would please me more. I managed to get in a demo of the Toshiba MT1 whilst I was out travelling, and I must say that for the similar price there really is no comparison. The Ellie just looked warmer and richer.

    Because I'm not very up on the technicalities (but I'm getting there) it is just going by gut instinct. That's why I made this post, because something can be made to look good in the shop might not be so good after living with it for a year.

    Thanks for your wonderful insights, and it's certainly led me in the right direction. I'm now just sorting the cash out so that I can get one installed before my birthday! It's appaling that I'm nearly 30, and I would still feel guilty showing it to my parents!!!

    (also thank you to Screens UK for giving me such a great demo on a Saturday afternoon, even although you were supposed to be closed for business. I could have stayed all day and listened to somebody talking with a passion about the whole thing. Spent the rest of the day in Birmingham and came home with 7 DVDs which I've had to promise that I won't open until I've sorted out the installation!).
     
  17. GarryF

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    Nobody's mentioned DLP in this thread yet, the new Seleco 200 projector looks interesting, has Chris got any more info when it will be available for demos and what sort of price it will be? [​IMG]

    I've been looking for a projector for a few months now and wonder if this might be a good compromise between LCD & CRT.
     
  18. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    £4500 for a Sony form a UK dealer is astonishing. Is that ex vat though... I suspect it must be.

    RIP off Britain it may be but it's not the dealers fault. At least not all the time ;-)

    As for DLP. Well I think the thing is that all projection technology has its problems. DLP is a new technology and it's getting there. It's advantage over LCD is that it's a reflective technology and due to the physical characteristics of how it works it can achieve better black levels than LCD while still maintaining, compactness, high brightness and uniform geometry. However, it has other problems.

    I'm looking forward to seeing the new Seleco. Hopefully they will have addressed some of the other inherent problems with single chip DLP's!

    Gordon

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  19. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
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    The new Seleco DLP - SDV200HT Grand Cinema - will be launched in early October.

    This is a dedicated home cinema projector rather than a warmed over presentation product. It will feature multiple inputs including progressive scan DVD, 16:9 compatibility, a very good built-in multi standard scaler and a few other touches that should please the Home Cinema crowd.

    The retail price is expected to be around 5995 inc VAT.

    There will be press announcements at the time of the launch.

    Regards

    Chris Frost
    Regional Sales Manager - N.England & Scotland
    Owl Video Systems Ltd www.owl-video.co.uk
     
  20. Blade

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    To Chris,
    will you be arranging for a review by HCC?
    I think it's about time the whole Seleco range were reviewed, and I'm sure everyone else agrees.
    And for Chris or Gordon, there is no explanation of what DLP is in the HCCO FAQ. I certainly have absolutely no idea what it is ! Would either of you two guys like to write an explanation which the web chaps can put in the FAQ?
    Thanks.
     
  21. Boris Blank

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    Gordon
    SDB in London, £3995 + vat, haggled down to £4500 although I didn't buy in the end as I wasn't 100% sure at that stage about getting the Sony. Now I'm even less sure!

    Didn't mean to imply that it was dealers that were ripping us off, its pretty apparent in this case that Sony (amongst others) have a range of prices they apply to dealers/markets and its the punter that ultimately bears the burden.

    Ah well, for me its back to square one - Seleco or Barco, CRT or DLP, ceiling mounted or floor..........!?!?
    Regards,
    Paul
     
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    A question to Add Re: LCD vs CRT - Why dont reviews give throw vs Screen width ratios. I am in the market for a large image and wish to fill a designated wall with the image . the wall width is 12 foot and this has to be achieved from a distance of 14ft. I found a site that claimed to give this info (www.iveco.com) but when I looked at the individual product specs in their own sites the info was wrong. IS there anysite that has this info, as magazines seem to omit this very relevent information.
     
  23. cessquill

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    The rule of thumb I was told was

    Screen Width x 1.5 = distance between screen and projector lens.

    I was also told

    Screen Width x 2 = ideal viewing distance.

    Therefore, if you're looking at a 12ft wide screen, then you're looking at a projector throw of about 18ft (if I understand it all correctly). Working backwards though, if your room is 14ft deep, allowing 2ft for the projector you're looking at a 12/1.5 = 8 feet maximum screen width.

    (that said, I'm having to sit virtually under the projector, if not in front of it when I get it installed.)

    Wherever on sites they offer a PDF download of user manuals/brochures/installation manuals it normally tells you there.

    The Ellie on www.screensuk.co.uk has it's own measurements in the downloadable installation guide, and the Sony 10HT has its measurements in its brochure.

    I will agree with you though, it does seem to be information that is not readily available.

    I could be wrong though, which has been known on the odd occasion.

    ---------
    Simon
    "We're just going to have to wait a minute for the church to get out of the way"
     
  24. Blade

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    Nunew, you will probably find it difficult to fill the whole 12 feet width of the wall. You'll most likely be better advised to use an 8 ft screen with the projector located near the back of your room. Barco have a downloadable program called lens.exe which calulates the exact position of the Barco projector given the required screen width etc. The actual position is flexible, but you start to use more or less of the phosphor which is not the optimum way to use the projector. You will want some room either side of your screen to locate your speakers, and a couple of feet either side gives you the luxury of not having them too close to the side wall.
    You will find that 8 feet is quite awesomly overwhelming so don't be desperate to get all 12 feet.
     
  25. Chris Frost

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    Blade,
    The reviews of the new DLP are already planned.

    As for the rest of the Seleco range, I would love to see more up to date reviews but I believe the magazines review facility is being refurbished at the moment. This kind of puts everything on hold for the time being.

    Regarding info on DLP (Digital Light Processing technology aka Digital Micro-mirror Device D.M.D.) I'm sure we can come up with and explaination for the FAQ section.

    Nunew and Cessquill asked why throw ratio information isn't more readily available. This is a very good point.

    It's fairly easy to give this info for CRT projectors because the lenses have no zoom function. Cessquils rule of thumb is quite correct - 1.5 x screen width = throw distance - although it's always worth checking with the manufacturer before you start drilling holes in the ceiling!

    LCD and DLP projectors are more complicated.
    Most manufacturers quote a throw ratio at the two extremes of the lens range. This seems simple enough until you find that the image size can also vary given between different source signals. A data signal will often give the biggest image, PAL and NTSC can give different sizes depending on how the projector scales the image before displaying it on the panel. A classic example is the DAVIS Cinema One. Biggest image with a PC input (800x600), then PAL and finally NTSC gives the smallest image. To add insult to injury, the image size also varies between 4:3 & 16:9 settings. There is rarely any information in the manuals that covers this topic in any detail.

    As you can imagine, this makes it very hard to give an accurate guide to the image size at any given distance. I suppose the only advice I can give is buy from a reputable dealer.

    Regards

    Chris Frost
    Regional Sales Manager - N.England & Scotland
    Owl Video Systems Ltd www.owl-video.co.uk


    [This message has been edited by Chris Frost (edited 11-09-2000).]
     
  26. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Blade,

    I'll speak to Steve about your suggestion on his return...


    SDB: Great price but goodness knows where they're getting them from at that price....

    12ft is a BIG image. The Sony VPL10 has a very short throw distance for an LCD projector. Zoomed out as far as poss it may fit your requirment. It may also be bright enough.... I'll try and work it out for you.
    Gordon

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  27. Black 5

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    I know this thread is almost dead, but I've just caught up with it and wanted to put in my tuppence!
    I've just spent 4 hours over the weekend setting up my Sony using the Avia test disc and the results are absolutely astonishing. With the disc and the help of a FAQ from the bigpicturedvd.com site I've been able to accomplish what I thought was impossible - to improve on what to my eyes was an already great picture from the projector.
    I don't believe I could have done that tweaking with a CRT projector, so for me the Sony wins, not just for sheer convenience (which is essential where I live) but on pure quality - I believe my home cinema on the best discs surpasses anything my local cinema can produce on both sound (that was already hands down due to some Tag McLaren, Audiolab and B&W gear) as well as picture.
    BTW I think it's perfectly legit to compare Sony import prices with UK prices of CRTs - you can install a Sony yourself, but just look at the trouble Chris had to deal with fixing an installation for another regular member of the forum. As for the ceiling mount, I got mine from the same place I bought the projector, The Creation Station, -it's not the Sony, but it's rock solid.

    Brian
     
  28. GarryF

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    If you don't mind me asking Black, what did you pay for your sony ?

     
  29. Alan Roser

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    Blade,

    Rest assured the the team at HCC are at the top of the list for the launch of the Seleco Grand Cinema HT 200. Special press previews will be held at the British Film Institute Theatre 1 on Tuesday 3rd October (Invitation only -sorry chaps!). The invites should already be sitting on the bosses desk. Concerning review products, I will make sure you have product over the next few months. To avoid any confusion concerning the HT250. This projector will be released just prior the CES show in Vegas January 01.

    Concerning the issues raised in the battle over CRT vs Lcd Vs Dlp just a few points.

    Do your homework and view as many products as you can.

    Pricing for grey imports are great - until they go wrong. It is not always easy to claim under warrent check that your supplier will honour the guarantee. As a guide a one LCD panel can cost as much as £1000 to replace.

    Finally watch the film not the picture, we home theatre fans get hung up on all the fine details and forget what this hobby is all about - empty bank accounts and fun!!

    Enjoy

    Alan Roser
    Technical Director
    Owl Video Systems
     
  30. cessquill

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    Thanks for your time and positive thoughts guys

    After a lot of thought I have booked the installation for an Ellie CRT Projector.

    I appreciate the setup and calibration issues involved over an LCD, but at the end of the day it was (for now at least) about £2000 cheaper than the Sony, quieter, and to me the picture looked more alive. It is bigger, but it's sitting in a redundant part of the ceiling anyhow.

    At the end of the day it was more of a gut feeling, which I hope will not turn out to be stupid. Whilst taking them all into account, I tried not to get too bogged down by technicalities.

    Oh well, in 15 days time I'll have more of an idea. Oh, and my inital finding out about the Ellie, and my final decisions all stemmed from this forum, so cheers HCCO

    Take care
    Simon
    -------
    ahhhh Juicy Fruit

    [This message has been edited by cessquill (edited 19-09-2000).]
     

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