Projector Newbie Alert: Suggestions and Questions

AngelEyes

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Hi There,

I am hoping to purchase my first projector setup in the coming months and have a lot to bone up on before I start getting some demos, hopefully you can help.

I am very interested in Ambient Light screens such as the Draper React 2.1, DNP Supernova 80-85 etc. as my room is a normal untreated lounge and although viewing will mostly be at night in the dark, I know reflected light can wash out contrast.

In an ideal world I would like to go CIH and at my viewing distance (3.3m) the optimal height, I have been told is around 1.1m.

Some questions:
  1. fL - I have been using the Calculator on projector central and added my throw (3.8m), Screen height (1.1m) and screen gain (e.g. 0.8 for DNP) and tried a variety of projectors and am I am somewhat confused by the results.

    A JVC DLA-X70R has 1200 Lumens and gives an fL of 30
    A Panasonic PT-AT6000 has 2400 Lumens but gives an fL of 21

    Now that does not seem right at all. Can someone please explain why the projector with the lower Lumen output can have a much higher fL?

  2. Economy Lamp Mode - From what I read this is the mode most people run their projectors in to conserve bulb life but it is at a loss of lumens. Given the higher lumen demands of 3D movies, is it reasonable to watch them in a 'high' mode and given the type of screen I am looking at (low gain), is there anything to stop you always running in high mode? At this stage I am oblivious to replacement bulb costs :blush:

  3. 'Normal' Screens - Given this is what most people use, what kind of performance reduction in blacks/contrast would I likely suffer in a normally decorated room compared to a bat-cave? I just want some idea of the pooint when spending money on a projector for its black level is wasted because the room is washing it all out. Also whether an Ambient Light screen is worth the extra cost!

My budget is not really set in stone as the screens can vary a huge amount so lets just assume for the projector alone I am looking at £3-5k. The JVC X55 gets a lot of love here but on some other review sites it seems almost rejected for 3D due to the lack of lumens. Whilst 3D would only be a fraction of our family viewing I know the kids would love it and I like it when it is done well so I don't want to compromise too much, but 2D and really good black levels and detail is the priority.

In terms of Projector suggestions, apart from the obvious I guess my shortlist of features are:

  • Lens Shift Memory for CIH (if I get a 2.4:1)
  • Good Blacks & Contrast
  • RF 3D Specs
  • Not DLP, I see Rainbows

That is a lot to ask in one post but I appreciate input on anything above, thanks very much :)

Adam
 
My first comment would be to suggest you ignore manufacturers claimed lumens output as you would not be comparing like for like between different manufacturers.

I use a JVC X3 in a lounge with magnolia walls, cream carpet and white ceiling. I think the 3D is awesome, and I never feel the need to use high lamp mode for 2D. This is of course all with lights off. I don't use a screen, I just project onto magnolia wall at present.

I'm interested in possibly getting a screen as my new room might have white walls and I might want to use the projector with lights on.

I would reccomend demoing and then buying an X55 ;)

I would then see if you actually need a screen (and what size) once you have the projector set-up.
 
My first comment would be to suggest you ignore manufacturers claimed lumens output as you would not be comparing like for like between different manufacturers.

I use a JVC X3 in a lounge with magnolia walls, cream carpet and white ceiling. I think the 3D is awesome, and I never feel the need to use high lamp mode for 2D. This is of course all with lights off. I don't use a screen, I just project onto magnolia wall at present.

I'm interested in possibly getting a screen as my new room might have white walls and I might want to use the projector with lights on.

I would reccomend demoing and then buying an X55 ;)

I would then see if you actually need a screen (and what size) once you have the projector set-up.

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

FWIW I will need a screen as projecting onto an ancient brick wall might have a slight detrimental affect on the PQ ;)

Cheers,

Adam :)
 
Adam

Good to see you are considering a pj as you should be pretty impressed with todays projectors they are quite improved over pj's from a few years back.

What I would suggest is get up to Allan @ Ideal a/v as he has the react II screen in situ in exactly your sort of room. As pointed out don't get too hung up on lumen specs as when calibrated they will be much lower than claimed.

If you are looking at wanting a 3D machine and want a React screen the JVC's may struggle a bit with brightness which is a shame as they have all the other attributes you seek. The Epson 9100 is a better match as is the Sony HW50 with this particular screen.

Allan has the JVC/Sony/Epson all on demo so you can see in one day the three leading machines available in your price range. To be honest the Pio 6000 is not in the same class(image wise) as the other 3 so I would drop it from your list unless you insist.:)

Bulbs generally are not much of an issue, the Epson 9100 has unlimited replacement bulbs included in the 3 yr warranty and to be honest JVC's latest lamp seems to have cracked the problems with premature dimming.

These days you should get 2k+ hrs from a bulb which equates to 3yrs watching 1 film a day.

It may be the JVC may still be bright enough for you with the React especially at night it may be more of an issue if you want some ambient light on while you have the pj running.

Hope that helps mate.

Keith
 
By the way I have seen the DNP and the Draper would be better as it has a higher gain of around 1-1.2 which means the JVC could well be ok.
 
Hi Keith,

I am hoping to scoot up to Allan's next week but it is a bit of a hike so it depends on work.

Correct me if I am wrong but I was under the impression neither the Sony nor the Epson have a zoom/lens memory for use with 2.4:1 screens? I think this may be a bit of a sticking point for me.

It has been years since I really saw any projectors so you are probably right that I am in for a treat, however sometimes ignorance is bliss and I wonder if I would be very happy with the JVC brightness UNTIL I see the Epson or Sony lol.

It is certainly an exciting prospect :)

Adam

P.S. Another thing I noticed mentioned a couple of times now is incompatibility (massive drop in brightness) with 3D and some Ambient light screens, something to do with the angle of the glasses filter and screen construction. Does you know anything about that?
 
By the way I have seen the DNP and the Draper would be better as it has a higher gain of around 1-1.2 which means the JVC could well be ok.

You have compared the two materials? Not many people have, so is it just the gain of the Draper that wins out or are there any other pros and cons (apart from the cost!)?

Thanks.

Adam :)
 
You are correct in that the Sony/Epson don't have power lenses with auto zoom, only the JVC's and Panny have that feature.If that is a deal breaker make sure you get a JVC and not a Panny as I feel they have a much better image.

I have read recently the issue mentioned regarding brightness drop off but not experienced it myself but then again I have not seen the latest machines with 3D only 2D without glasses.

I have not seen the latest draper 2.1 only the earlier 2 version.I have seen the 80/85 a while back and did not like it much, there seemed to be a sort of texture/fine gauze effect on screen when looking from certain angles.
 
The other thing to think about is size, the JVC is ****ing huge, the Panasonic may be more wife friendly, depends on positioning though.
 
The Sony VW95 will give the motorised lens features for scope screens, but not quite as bright as the Sony HW50 which you already know doesn't have the motorised lens. The VW95 replacement should be a stellar machine if it builds on the specs of the HW50 and adds motorised lens shift and a better lens - will be autumn at the earliest though.
A bit of a curve ball would be the JVC F110 - a 1700 lumen brighter version of the X7 designed for professional installations such as planetariums and the like:

JVC DLA-F110 projector

Very expensive but you can pick it up on ebay from ukprojector for £2099. I would never buy from these guys but its another option nonetheless. Its a bit noisier than the regular JVC's though.

I definately think you should go Sony for your set up. The HW50 can still do CIH, but you just need to manually adjust each time you want to change aspect. I've done this for years with various PJ's and it only takes 30 seconds or so to do...
 
chienmetallique said:
The other thing to think about is size, the JVC is ****ing huge, the Panasonic may be more wife friendly, depends on positioning though.

Thanks for the suggestions chaps.

Years ago I built a wooden bookshelf into the rear wall of my lounge with removable backs to the shelves in case I ever went for a projector so that will be the position, more or less middle of the screen but a little offset horizontally, maybe 30cm max. I can easily fit a JVC in there as I guess the HD1 and then some was was what I allowed for at the time.

What this does mean though is that the airflow would need to be in and out on the front, like JVC, any rear or side intake/outtake wouldn't work as the back of the bookshelves opens into a cupboard in the room behind, so enclosed. Not sure if that rules any of the above out?

Thanks,

Adam :)
 
What this does mean though is that the airflow would need to be in and out on the front, like JVC, any rear or side intake/outtake wouldn't work as the back of the bookshelves opens into a cupboard in the room behind, so enclosed. Not sure if that rules any of the above out?
The JVC takes it's are from the rear and exhausted it at the front. As this is an ultra quite projector the fan speed has been optimised to it draws the correct air flow with as little noise as possible they always recommend not backing it right up to the wall. It could restrict the air flow which could cause issues later on.

Regards, Shane.
 
Maybe you could leave the cupboard in the other room open when using the pj.
 
Hi Adam,

Reflectance levels are easy to calculate yourself for any screen, but as iamsludge says you need some accurate lumens to start with. If you can find some on line reviews from people like cine4home/de (they have an English translated page for some of their reviews) who have taken real measurements, you can then work out what kind of levels to expect on a new lamp.

You divide the screen area (in square feet) into the lumens, and that will give you fL. If the screen has gain, multiply the fL number by the gain (usually between 1 and 1.3, but there are plenty of brighter screens out there).

Cine4home usually has many measurements to take into account the throw (a pj closer to the screen will give more lumens than one further back on the same screen due to the lens F number difference the zoom makes), and things like iris position which could be opened or closed depending on whether you want more or less contrast or lumen output. Very handy for adjusting the image brightness when the lamp ages and dims.

If the image is too bright, use the iris or a good quality ND filter to dim it down. You can always remove it for 3D or daytime viewing. If you want a more cinematic image, try to aim for around 12fL or a little less (you rarely get more in a commercial theatre), but take into account lamp dimming so you can bring the level back up after a few hundred hours if necessary. Too bright an image looks less cinematic IMHO and can highlight image artefacts etc from poorer source material (like SD or DVD stuff for example), but again it can be a personal thing. You should be OK with BD which is of course much higher in res and has a better compression algorithm so less likely to show artefacts if shown brighter than the standards.

Most people have no idea what they're image brightness/fL levels are and it's not unusual for many to be less than 12fL. I once measured a set up that was only 4fL but still looked good in a fully darkened room that had dark walls etc. In those conditions our eyes are pretty adaptable.

Seating distance is a personal thing, but a good start for a zoomed 2.4:1 CIH set up is around 3 x the image height. If you use an anamorphic lens (or just used a normal 16:9 screen) you can sit as close as 2 x the image height if you want a more immersive experience (and immersion is an important factor) because the pixel density will be greater. THX recommend 2.4 x IH based on pixel density, visual acuity and immersion with a 1080 16:9 screen (or 2.4 screen with an A lens). Usually we suggest you get the pj first and experiment to see what works for you before buying a screen or deciding on where to sit if you can vary either.

I used to sit at 3 x IH with a 2.35:1 screen, 720 pj and anamorphic lens and that was watching mostly DVD (not much HD back then), so if you're watching most HD then sitting closer isn't a problem, but testing is important to see what works for you.

I've found that 2 x IH works very well for me with no issues, but we're all different. 3 x IH is a good start but also consider where you like to sit in a commercial theatre. We have 120 degrees binocular vision, and sitting as close as 2 x IH gives us a 60 degree field of view, so isn't a strain on the eyes. vertical viewing angles have more effect on viewing comfort so make sure your screen isn't too high.

I personally prefer a 2.4 screen as all ratios are then correctly displayed as designed in a CIH set up, but for that to work correctly seating distance is important so that 16:9 doesn't look too small. Also, not everyone likes CIH so again, experiment to see what works for you. Set up is important. If CIH isn't for you, consider something like a 2.05:1 screen for a constant image area approach which will give you the same area for both 16:9 an 2.4:1 movies, and is an improvement over a standard 16:9 set up.

I've always set up for using eco mode on the lamp so that you have high lamp mode available for 3D, daytime viewing or when the lamp dims with age, but it can be noisier (you may be OK if the pj is in a 'box' which may help subdue the sound).

A room doesn't have any effect on a pjs on/off contrast (unless you have ambient light present) but reflections from bright decor rooms will lower the intra image contrast as bright reflections wash out the dark areas. Usually a low gain white screen gives best results, but a grey screen will work better in a brighter room or even with ambient light. A grey screen with a little gain is better than with no gain as it further helps reduce the effect room reflections have, and helps keep the image brightness up as grey screens are usually lower gain so reduce the image brightness compared to a similar white screen.

Gary
 
kbfern said:
Maybe you could leave the cupboard in the other room open when using the pj.

Yes that is a possibility although not ideal I could live with it, at least the projector wouldn't heat up the lounge :)
 
Gary Lightfoot said:
Hi Adam,

Reflectance levels are easy to calculate yourself for any screen, but as iamsludge says you need some accurate lumens to start with. If you can find some on line reviews from people like cine4home/de (they have an English translated page for some of their reviews) who have taken real measurements, you can then work out what kind of levels to expect on a new lamp.

You divide the screen area (in square feet) into the lumens, and that will give you fL. If the screen has gain, multiply the fL number by the gain (usually between 1 and 1.3, but there are plenty of brighter screens out there).

Cine4home usually has many measurements to take into account the throw (a pj closer to the screen will give more lumens than one further back on the same screen due to the lens F number difference the zoom makes), and things like iris position which could be opened or closed depending on whether you want more or less contrast or lumen output. Very handy for adjusting the image brightness when the lamp ages and dims.

If the image is too bright, use the iris or a good quality ND filter to dim it down. You can always remove it for 3D or daytime viewing. If you want a more cinematic image, try to aim for around 12fL or a little less (you rarely get more in a commercial theatre), but take into account lamp dimming so you can bring the level back up after a few hundred hours if necessary. Too bright an image looks less cinematic IMHO and can highlight image artefacts etc from poorer source material (like SD or DVD stuff for example), but again it can be a personal thing. You should be OK with BD which is of course much higher in res and has a better compression algorithm so less likely to show artefacts if shown brighter than the standards.

Most people have no idea what they're image brightness/fL levels are and it's not unusual for many to be less than 12fL. I once measured a set up that was only 4fL but still looked good in a fully darkened room that had dark walls etc. In those conditions our eyes are pretty adaptable.

Seating distance is a personal thing, but a good start for a zoomed 2.4:1 CIH set up is around 3 x the image height. If you use an anamorphic lens (or just used a normal 16:9 screen) you can sit as close as 2 x the image height if you want a more immersive experience (and immersion is an important factor) because the pixel density will be greater. THX recommend 2.4 x IH based on pixel density, visual acuity and immersion with a 1080 16:9 screen (or 2.4 screen with an A lens). Usually we suggest you get the pj first and experiment to see what works for you before buying a screen or deciding on where to sit if you can vary either.

I used to sit at 3 x IH with a 2.35:1 screen, 720 pj and anamorphic lens and that was watching mostly DVD (not much HD back then), so if you're watching most HD then sitting closer isn't a problem, but testing is important to see what works for you.

I've found that 2 x IH works very well for me with no issues, but we're all different. 3 x IH is a good start but also consider where you like to sit in a commercial theatre. We have 120 degrees binocular vision, and sitting as close as 2 x IH gives us a 60 degree field of view, so isn't a strain on the eyes. vertical viewing angles have more effect on viewing comfort so make sure your screen isn't too high.

I personally prefer a 2.4 screen as all ratios are then correctly displayed as designed in a CIH set up, but for that to work correctly seating distance is important so that 16:9 doesn't look too small. Also, not everyone likes CIH so again, experiment to see what works for you. Set up is important. If CIH isn't for you, consider something like a 2.05:1 screen for a constant image area approach which will give you the same area for both 16:9 an 2.4:1 movies, and is an improvement over a standard 16:9 set up.

I've always set up for using eco mode on the lamp so that you have high lamp mode available for 3D, daytime viewing or when the lamp dims with age, but it can be noisier (you may be OK if the pj is in a 'box' which may help subdue the sound).

A room doesn't have any effect on a pjs on/off contrast (unless you have ambient light present) but reflections from bright decor rooms will lower the intra image contrast as bright reflections wash out the dark areas. Usually a low gain white screen gives best results, but a grey screen will work better in a brighter room or even with ambient light. A grey screen with a little gain is better than with no gain as it further helps reduce the effect room reflections have, and helps keep the image brightness up as grey screens are usually lower gain so reduce the image brightness compared to a similar white screen.

Gary

Thanks Gary, lots to think about there. I'll respond once I have a chance to think a bit more about everything.

Adam :)
 
P.S. Another thing I noticed mentioned a couple of times now is incompatibility (massive drop in brightness) with 3D and some Ambient light screens, something to do with the angle of the glasses filter and screen construction. Does you know anything about that?
If a projector emits polarised light and the screen retains that polarisation in the reflected light and you have 3rd party glasses that operate on a different polarization then you get a v dark image. The common example is the JVC which emits horizontally polarised light but many 3rd party glasses expect vertically polarised light. Hence if you tilt your head 90 degrees and it gets darker then you know the screen retains the polarisation.

I don't believe screen manufacturers publish this info though so you have to rely on forum posts (eg this thread on avs has many examples http://www.avsforum.com/t/1300238/discussion-screens-for-3d-projection I haven't seen a similar thread here). FWIW I have a JVC, a vutec screen and 3rd party glasses that perform no differently to the JVC glasses.

Cheers
Matt
 
I can't say much more on the subject but I will echo the comments on the units size. The JVC is a big/heavy projector, the Sony is a much better size :smashin:.

I've seen the Sony in action, it does throw a great image but it does lack the motorised lens. One thing to consider (I'm sure it works) you can use a Lumagen processor to shrink the image for 1.85:1 material?
 
I have the dnp supernova 23/23 screen with a jvc x30. One thing this to watch out for is the texture you get on certain scenes especially bright scenes on a high gain screen. This may only be an issue with the jvc projector because I didn't get this texture with an optoma hd82 or the optoma hd87.

In my room (light coloured walls) the 1300 lumens work fine.

I also had problems with 3rd party glasses with my screen. When watching the picture sitting normally the picture became be very dark and unwatchable. However, tilting the head 90 degrees seemed to work fine (difficult to do unless your lying down!). However when I projected on a wall the 3rd party glasses worked fine and I actually found them to be better than the jvc glasses but they wouldn't work with my screen. The 3rd party glasses were substantially cheaper that the jvc ones. The standard jvc glasses worked ok on my screen.
 
Good morning Adam..from the description of your requirements, there's possibly going to have to be a wee bit of compromise somewhere along the way.

I think the JVC X35 would be an excellent candidate..excellent blacks, motorised aspect ratio changing but then it has the air intake at the rear.

The Sony is brighter than the JVC and has the reality creation processing to tidy up the picture to add sharpness and depth. But then you have to sacrifice the motorised lens control..which can be a headache.

I'm not sure if Keith has compared the new revised Draper material to the DNP material?

I think Jagdeepp was in a similar position to you with regards to projector choice and Ricky from Kalibrate actually popped over to his with a few of the projectors mentioned so he could take a look for himself how the pjs would look in his own room..maybe that's an option for you down the line if you can determine which screen you're going to go with :)
 
Thanks guys, lots of interesting things to think about and it may be there is no perfect projector for me at the moment.

Smurfin was hear earlier, we briefly chatted about it and he suggested I may be aiming too high as a first item setup and it might make better sense to get a normal screen and 2nd hand projector. That way I can get a good frame of reference without spending a fortune and at least decide on the right screen size for a possibly higher end setup in 6 months time when there may be other hardware available.

I am now considering this approach as well, my poor brain. :)

Adam

P.s. I did pm Ricky a couple of days ago so will see if he can help too.
 
To be honest Adam a lower budget of £1500 approx would probably get you a JVC X30 which would give you a decent pj with good black level, lens shift memory and overall a very good level of performance without spending the earth.

If you want to spend much less a Panny AE4000 for £800 approx although a JVC HD350 would cost about the same and has better blacks/contrast.

For a screen try and get a grey one if possible as that will give you better blacks in your type of room, they are a bit rare but you do see them from time to time. You can get them off ebay from platinum screens for £100 approx. They are a long way off the drapers in quality terms but as a temp screen worth a shot they do various sizes the one linked below is 92" diagonal.

New 92" Electric Motorized HD Projection Screen Widescreen 16:9 Matt Grey | eBay
 
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