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progressive

Discussion in 'General Video Gaming Chat' started by keyser, Jun 24, 2002.

  1. keyser

    keyser
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    has anyone seen a gamecube image in progressive scan from a compenent input versus a s-video image. Is there a big difference??
     
  2. NeoBlade

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    I haven't seen it first hand but from the feedback from other people it is a huge difference alright. If you're running an import GC with s-video then even that image doesn't really compare to an RGB one, never mind a prog.scan image!

    Remember that in prog.scan mode the resolution is increased thus offering sharper, more defined images with vibrant colours. If you get a chance to pop into Audio Excellence or something, bring along your Gamecube and ask for a demo on their plasma or loewe TV. Just pretend that you're a potential plasma buyer ^_^ I doubt that stores like Dixons, Comet etc will have any plasma screens so try dedicated audio and visual stores.

    Games that look a lot better via prog.scan I'm told are Wave Race (since it originally runs in low res anyway), Smash Bros Melee and Sega's Soccer Slam. Rogue Leader doesn't offer a huge difference from its RGB counterpart I'm told.

    I'm just waiting for my Tosh TV to see the results for myself but I know that it'll be worth it, for both videogames and DVDs.
     
  3. keyser

    keyser
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    I live in iceland so I wont be visiting audio excellence anytime soon, but thanks for the info. Post the info right away on how the games look when you get the tosh.. allright? That would be real nice of you.
     
  4. NeoBlade

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    Ah I didn't know you were in iceland... Actually someone did mention that they lived there on a different forum so it could have been you. Do they have other dedicated audio/visual places there? Basically try to borrow ones plasma on display for a few mins so you can use your gamecube...

    I'll post my results once I have the TV.. Which will probably be around 7th July unfortunately.
     
  5. keyser

    keyser
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    We just have the basic pal thing here... except I think we have uhf frequency on our tv but you guys have vhf so we have to wait a bit longer for the tv models to arrive here., and everything costs twice as much. Im gonna go to the pioneer thing and hook my nintendo up to their plasma and see if it runs ... .. godamn it.. i dont have any component plugs for my nintendo... so fortgett it. Alzheimer got me again
     
  6. NeoBlade

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    Hehe, I'm sure you'll find a component cable online. try www.lik-sang.com. You have RF but don't you have SCART as well? If you do then RGB scart is the way to go... Unless of course you have a prog.scan compatible TV or a plasma/projector.

    You must have an import Gamecube of course to do all this in the first place. If you have one hold down the red button when you turn on the Gamecube. The prog.scan option will then come up.
     
  7. keyser

    keyser
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    yes, we have scart and all the other stuff. If I hold down the b button the nothing happens, I´m guessing that the component plug must be connected, not my s-video for the progressive thing to come up. But how does it work, not all games have progressive scan, and I think star wars has progressive scan-interlaced switch thing on the menu.
    Why do you say that resolution is increased in progressive scan. All the lines appear at the same time, instead of being interlaced. That doesn´t add resolution does it, it just makes the image sharper I would think, kinda like the difference between 50 and 100hz (besides the crap 100hz extra smearing and stuff).
     
  8. NeoBlade

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    Yeah for the progressive option to pop up you need a component or DVI digital cable connected to your Gamecube.

    As for progressive scan yes it would be updated together as frames and not interlaced lines, but the resolution would be increased... I can't put a specific number on it though (maybe someone else could?). After all Wave Race runs in low resolution and once you pop it into progressive it goes into high resolution.

    I guess on a pure technical level where stats are concerned with progressive scan I'm a bit in the grey area, but I'm sure its can be too much more than delivering pure frames a second due to the increased bandwidth.
     
  9. keyser

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    If I´m getting this, then if I plug my cube via component and switch it to progressive, not only will I get a progressive image but also a swith to higher resolution on some games (like the option you had in some later games for the n64), so I get two elements that should improve picture. But on a DVD player, the image wouldn´t improve as much from RBG to component progressive, because there wouldn´t actually be an increase in resolution (a decrease actually if i were to compare it to the pixelplus), has the info gone correctly through my thick skull? If so then here is another question. Is the picture a lot better between progressive compenent vs. rgb from a dvd, do you think the tosh could look better in progressive scan compenent than the pixelplus one does in rgb (you woulnd´t get any of bad digital smearing artifacts on the tosh would you)??? Thanks for your replies. Not many if anyone here in iceland that knows anything about this, the dudes at the stores dont know diddly squat... "eehhh.. what do you say this progressive thing does"
     
  10. NeoBlade

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    It would go in high res automatically (mainly Wave Race which runs in low res anyway), but for all games the image will be a lot sharper and overall a lot better (no colour bleeding etc)... After all if it wasn't then there wouldn't be a need for component.

    Pixel Plus basically ups the res artificially, often with good results but because its processor dependant smearing can happen during fast scenes (theres too much data to calculate and the processor can't keep up). One good thing about Pixel Plus though is that you can use it for everything, including on VHS tapes.

    The setup from RGB to component won't be earth shattering, but an improvement. Remember that since the image won't be interlaced, the image will be a lot more solid and will have more definition.

    IMO If you can go for a prog.scan capable display then do so, but if not then the current crop of TVs still offer a superb picture with RGB.

    Just remember that only Region 1 DVDs are progressive scan ready. Its taking an awful long time for PAL progressive to find its feet so if you don't import region 1 DVDs then you would only need prog.scan for your games consoles.

    Last point I do believe that a pure prog.scan signal would be clearer than a processed one (via Pixel Plus). I'm sure Philips will be working hard to make Pixel Plus even better for future TVs so things could change.. My vote goes to component prog.scan though.
     
  11. keyser

    keyser
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    Thanks. Most of my dvd´s are region 1, and all the ones that picture quality matter to me are region 1 and my cube is us, so progressive capabilites would matter much to me. Thats why Im excited about the new tosh, if it can really take ntsc progressive signals, I havent gotten it 100% confirmed. I think it can just to internal progressive on pal signals?
     
  12. McPastry

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    Another good thing about progressive mode on the GC is the games will run in anamorphic widescreen mode, the only way to achieve this in certain games (Luigi's Mansion and Rogue Leader being two games where progressive is the only way to get a 16:9 picture)
     
  13. keyser

    keyser
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    Brilliant. Why on earth don´t they say anything about this in the manual(or did I skip that part). Does Luigi run in progressive, do all games?
     
  14. NeoBlade

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    Yeah, can't wait to test everything out. The date is getting nearer for my Tosh, I just hope there isn't any more delays in the shipment now. Still thinking about what prog.scan DVD player to get as well... If the PAL prog.scan on the Tosh isn't up to scratch then I might go for the Tosh SD510E or a US Philips Q50. Hopefully Oblivion can fill us in with the PAL prog.scan scene...
     
  15. keyser

    keyser
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    If the Tosh can take progressive ntsc signal, and the tube doesn´t have all the shortcomingd that the others have then I´m gonna get me on 36". What was the prob anyways with the older tubes, heard some talk of "dirty screen" and black bars? Nothing is perfect is it, the pixelplus has the digital smearing and glowing thing and the sony the sidebar scrolling, are these problems really that great. Anyways, keep me informed on how the Tosh works. Getting excited to know if it takes progressive and if the tube is good. These Tosh models are called "strate", right? do they come in the same tube and picture technology but only in nicam stereo, sucks to pay for dolby digital sound when you have a good home cinema allready. Does it have Pictureinpicture?
     
  16. zcaps57

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    It depends on your display.
    On a small directview tube based displays such as 32" and 36", the difference between 480i and 480p is very subtle.

    On the other hand, if you have big screen displays like 50"+, then the difference between 480i and 480p becomes pretty dramatic.

    Some people say that as long as a display has a "good" line-doubler, there's virtually no difference since the display accepts 480i from a GameCube or XBOX and deinterlace it to 480p.

    But it is completely false.

    Even the best deinterlacer isn't able to get the same detail out of the 480i signal that is present in the 480p.

    This has 3 reasons:

    1) The interlace signal is filtered quite a bit vertically, to minimize 'interlace-flicker'. The loss in detail through this filtering can't be reconstructed.

    2) The interlace signal also isn't quite as detailed horizontally. The rise-time of the progressive signal is quite i bit higher, leading to more clarity. This is most likely not due to filtering, but rather due to the frequency response characteristics of the RAMDAC when displaying interlace content.

    3) On film-based DVD, you get the full 24 frames of 720x480 pixels after you perform inverse 3:2 pulldown.

    On video-based DVD, you have 60 interleaved fields of half resolution (720x240) in the 480i signal and you can use clever deinterlacing to minimize combing or bobbing artefacts.

    The progressive output of the XBox, and GameCube on the other hand does have 60 full fields of full resolution (720x480 or 640x480). So its twice as much data to begin with. No deinterlacer can reconstruct this information.

    The native progressive output of a DVD player uses 3:2 frame padding to output 60hz. This means there are only 24 actual 720x480 frames contained, the rest is repeated redundacy. The interlace output also contains all of these frames, you simply need to 'fit the fields together' properly. So an almost perfect reconstruction is possible.

    But the XBox, and GameCube progressive output differs from that DVD progressive output in that it really has 60 full 640x480 frames in it and NO redundacy. The interlace signal always only outputs HALF of that information (60 fields of 640x240), although everything is rendered.

    This missing half of information can't be restored, no matter what, which makes the advantage of XBox, and GameCube progressive output a totally different animal from DVD progressive output.

    On a revealing setup like mine, XBox, and GameCube progressive 480p looks MUCH better than 480i deinterlaced through even the most expensive scalers.

    Hope this helps. :)
     
  17. NeoBlade

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    :: pounds chest :: Nice one zcaps57, my knowledge on this topic is rather fuzzy since I haven't looked into it in depth. My field only lies on the videogames scene and PCs so I need to get up to speed with this data.

    If it makes a noticable difference on my 36" Tosh then that will do me for now. Cash needs to be spent on other areas of life and its never fun being a student. I guess I'd better go job hunting ^_^
     

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