Progressive Scan

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Pip_UK, Dec 31, 2001.

  1. Pip_UK

    Pip_UK
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    Can someone answer the following question for me -

    Do you need region one dvd's to use progressive scan on a dvd player or do you just need a projector capable of outputting NTSC signal?

    Cheers

    Pip
     
  2. LV426

    LV426
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    To be most accurate - you need an NTSC DVD (which includes the USA & Canada - R1 - and Japan - R2).

    Progressive scan from PAL sources is technically possible, but is "outlawed" at present due to lack of agreements between lawyers.
     
  3. Pip_UK

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    thanks mate

    ... thinking of getting Pioneer DVD737 now
     
  4. Reiner

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    R3 DVDs are also 'NTSC' and hence should be seen in PS if you have a PS capable DVD player AND display ...
     
  5. LV426

    LV426
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    I have one. Multiregion from Sevenoaks Sound & Vision. Absolutely first class.
     
  6. Lowrider

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    Outlawed or not, the Arcams will do progressive scan from PAL DVDs...
     
  7. Pip_UK

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    Thanks for your help guys ...

    Pip
     
  8. AlfaKhan

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    Antonio are you sure?

    Because I can also get a signal out of my Toshiba SD900E when selecting PROGRESSIVE during R2 PAL discs, but right from the beggining I noticed it was not a perfect signal. In fact it is inferior to INTERLACED output from the same discs!
    I made an inquiry with Toshiba and they could not tell me what, exactly, was the player outputing in this condition. Nevertheless, they were quite positive it was not PAL progressive.

    Here's their reply:

    "There is no progressive scan available on PAL disks so, if you switch between progressive and interlaced, it is trying to interpret an interlaced signal incorrectly. I do not know exactly what signal is being output but it is not going to give a better picture than the correct signal and you would expect the "progressive" signal to give a poorer picture."

    HB
     
  9. Lowrider

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    I don´t have progressive scan on my DV88, I am only repeating what I read on other threads...
     
  10. Cool-hand

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    I think your Tosh is down-converting a PAL image (625) into a NTSC image (525) then outputting it as a prog image.

    This is only a guess from what I've heard about other peoples experience's.

    I can give you first hand knowledge in a very short while, as I'll be connecting the Tosh sd900e via YUV to my Pioneer 503hde plasma screen later................later mater...........
     
  11. lmccauley

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    I have heard from several extremely reliable sources that it is possible to make the Arcams output a progressive PAL signal. Of course, Arcam themselves would never do this until it was all approved by the DVD Forum.

    Cheers,
    Liam
     
  12. gavan

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    How would PAL progressive work? To me, the whole reason for NTSC progressive was to restore the 24fps non-interlaced picture that the film was in, reducing temporal and interlacing artifacts.

    Discs coded for 60Hz playback can offer progressive because many sourced from movies are actually stored as 24 frames per second and the DVD player does the '3:2 pulldown' to make a 30Hz interlaced signal . A progressive player will merely output the 24fps non-interlaced signal on the disc without further processing.

    With discs coded for 50Hz 'PAL' playback, this does not happen. The movie is speeded up at conversion time to 25fps and transferred across to be stored as 50 interlaced fields per second. I could see that the DVD player could do the deinterlacing (but it still couldn't reproduce the non-interlaced original source correctly) .. but then it would have to output the resulting stream of pictures as 24Hz non-interlaced. Furthermore it would have to mess around somewhat with the audio to sample rate convert it to the 48kHz used for Dolby Digital and DTS. Seems like a LOT of additional work would be needed to do PAL progressive over the NTSC version....

    ... Unless I'm missing something (quite probably). Anyone care to fill me in?

    Or does PAL progressive simply mean 25fps non-interlaced?

    In that case, my LCD projector already deinterlaces the input signal so if the PAL progressive output was still 25fps what would be the advantage for PAL viewers on something like an LCD or DLP projector (other than the theoretical benefit of deinterlacing at the digital source).

    Gav
     
  13. John Dawson

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    Gav,

    When deinterlacing 625 line pictures recorded from film stock then
    everything stays at 50Hz (i.e. the film is speeded up 4%). You just have to live with this.

    The deinterlacer also has to detect which fields to combine to make the 25 frames per second - this is called 2:2 pulldown. This is best done inside the DVD player when the signal is still digital, as there are no D/A and A/D losses when this is done. You may also have access to the relevant flags in the MPEG stream. And remember not all deinterlacers do 2:2 pulldown well.

    Finally if you started with film stock then it is perfectly possible to recreate the original inherently progressive frames perfectly. It is much harder with video stock, that started life as interlaced, to reconstruct it without artefacts. That tends to sort out the men from the boys in deinterlacer land.

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  14. CWB

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    I have an Arcam DV88 (without progressive scan for the moment), and this morning received the new DVD software version 1.76 disc so that I could upgrade.

    Along with the update instructions was a FAQ sheet to supplement the player manual. (Ref. SH8827FAQ, Issue 1)

    One of the FAQs is "

    Problem: No progressive video output (DV27/DV88P)

    Possible cause: A PAL disc (such as those sold in Europe) is being played

    Solution: The player cannot output progressive video from a PAL source. To enjoy progressive video output, NTSC source discs must be played"

    Straight from the horses mouth.

    Regards,

    Cliff
     
  15. gavan

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    Thanks for the reply, John.

    So PAL progressive is really just 'onboard deinterlacing' as opposed to the '24fps progressive' of the NTSC variant on DVDs, then. I can see how it should yield better results that letting the projector deinterlace the analogue signal, but its hardly the massive improvement that you'd get from NTSC progressive.

    I'd sort of hoped for a bit of jiggery pokery to give 24fps out of 625/50 material. With digital, it wouldn't be utterly impossible to do this - but would add quite a bit of cost to design and implement the extra silicon, I imagine.

    Seems to me that R1 525/60 could well be the DVD format for the dedicated home-cinema software buyer to go for purely on the basis that its going to be 'easy' for the layman to get a 24fps progressive signal using a suitable deck. Never mind the fuss over macrovision holding up PAL progressive decks.


    Gav
     
  16. lmccauley

    lmccauley
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    Hypothetically, if you were producing a DVD player that had a feature that was not yet ratified by the DVD forum (and indeed you could be taken to court for including said feature), but would likely be in the future, would you:
    a) Not include the feature at all; or
    b) Make the feature available via a service menu, so that it could be enabled when the feature was ratified?

    Alledgedly.

    Cheers,
    Liam
     

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