Progressive scan? What is it and do i need it?.....

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by PapAV, May 14, 2002.

  1. PapAV

    PapAV
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    As I'm replacing my current 50hz 29" 4:3 TV with a 36" Philips beasty (36pw9607 - pixel plus jobby) I've decided to upgrade my DVD player from my current PS2.

    What's progressive scan and do I need it?
     
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  3. nigel_williams

    nigel_williams
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    I don't think TVs accept progressive output from a DVD - it's aimed mainly at plasma and projectors. If you read the web pages above, it explains the problems associated with using an interlaced picture - progressive give you a scan containing all the image updated top to bottom, left to right (as a PC does).

    The larger the image, the more noticeable the effects hence plasma and projectors accept progressive output via component to reduce it. It can really make a difference by reducing jagged lines and appears to improve detail.

    As for players, there are several doing NTSC progressive but PAL progressive is still "illegal". There are 2 players (sharing the same progressive board) which do a decent job on PAL and they are the Arcam DV88 and DV27 (£1,300 and £1,600 respectively).
     
  4. PapAV

    PapAV
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    From what I've read it's a non-interlaced mode.

    Hoorah!

    Can TV's display it? namely the Philips 36PW9607

    For computer screens the change was harware in the screen - not in the input (ie dvd)
     
  5. MarkTaylor

    MarkTaylor
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  6. Reiner

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    Well, some TVs now do have PS inputs but it's quite rare nevertheless. Check with your dealer if the new TV does PS or not. If not no need to worry about the player having PS ...
     
  7. patmyhead

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    HI
    On my Sony 11 ht the difference between progressive scan & compositve is not worth the £380 i payed to have my Arcam diva 88 upgraded the pics are only just better
    This is useing both PAL & NTSC dvd s
    [email protected]
     
  8. mikeaitch

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    In my case the difference is quite noticeable, Tosh 510 pics swapped from interlaced to ps were obvious enough for the other half to see. Perhaps its more noticeable lower down the dvd scale?
     
  9. nigel_williams

    nigel_williams
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    I think it depends on the disk and video content. The best examples I've seen are the opening scenes of Star Trek Insurrection where the camera pans over the village. The smooth curves of the bridge are jagged, the two upturned canoes on the bank are distorted and just about every roof of the village has jagged edges, not to mention the nasty moire effect from the roof tiles. With progressive PAL, this all disappears.

    Another example is on Gladiator - not sure the chapter number but it starts with an aerial shot of the colluseum then pans down over a golden eagle. The shots of the emperor near the balcony are really jagged..... but again, this all disappears with progressive.

    Some friends came round last friday and asked me what progressive was so I demoed the two scenes above and I didn't even need to point out the differences!! (Girls noticed it too!! );)
     
  10. Reiner

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    The scanning lines should be less or not visible at all when using PS.
    If you can't see that (well, you are actually supposed "not to see them") you better see an eye doctor. ;)
     
  11. Guest

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    Hay, thanks for info.

    Guess i have to live with it because my Sony Wega ES34M61
    does not have to PS input and hope Sony can do somthing
    about it.

    By the way, am I right to say that there is no reason for me to
    buy a progessive scan dvd player - afterall I can't take full
    advantage/use of the PS ?:rolleyes:
     
  12. Reiner

    Reiner
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    Correct.

    BTW: Doesn't your Wega have DRC? Then you have "Pseudo-PS" already!
     
  13. codlord

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  14. patmyhead

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    Nigel
    I had a look on gladiator last night the eagle bit compared the comp to the pro scan we could not see the jaggered bits you mention both imputs where good
    this was useing good quality cables 10 m long
    a had a look at seven brides for seven brothers [dont laff i have a affliction ] the comp imput on ntsc was better than the scan but this was a poor transfer dvd
    is the pro scan upgrade not working or is the Sony that good at its own comp scaning that there an!t that much difference in quality
    [email protected]
     
  15. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Patmyhead......I take it you mean Component rather than Composite in your posts.....

    If the above assumption is correct then it doesn't surprise me you can't see much/any difference. The Sony has 2:3 recognition for NTSC film based material. I did this comparison at a clients house with a Toshiba 9000? or whatever top unit is V the Sony itself. Tosh outputing prog scan...The Sony was better when fed an interlaced component source signal from the Toshiba rather than the Porgressive one.

    It should be noted that your projector is an exception as it has pretty good de-interlacing on board. The Sil chipset is better IMHO than that inside the projector but for the most part you may never see this.

    If you were to do the same comparisons with a SIM2HT200 or a Sony VPL10 or a Panasonic AE100 I would expect a VERY noticeable improvement with the progressive source!

    Gordon
     
  16. patmyhead

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    HI Gordon
    I had my Arcam upgraded to progessive scan cost £380
    what i carnt see is much benefit from this upgrade !!!!
    Could the scan module be fitted incorectly it was done by a local dealer who was on Denons dealer list
    Arcam dont reply to customer questions they just take your money & run
    [email protected]
     
  17. patmyhead

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    HI
    What i must add is when the sony is fed a S video signal from SKY the pictures are at best bad & only just better from my HUMAX sat box this is again useing good quality leads
    so i just use the compos imput
    [email protected]
     
  18. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Patmayhead...

    I am not having a go at you mate....You have the best LCD projector I have ever seen!

    Can you please answer this question then I can give you more detailed reply to help you resolve the situation.

    Are you using

    a: Composite, IE ONE CABLE
    b: Component, IE THREE CABLES

    from DVD to Projector. Answer this for BOTH

    Progressive
    and Interlaced


    I am looking for a reply that looks like this


    Progressive: B
    Interlaced: B

    Let me know and we'll get closer to working out what's going on with your system:)

    Gordon
     
  19. patmyhead

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    Hi gordon i use 3 cables from retro fit progressive output on arcam labled progressive there is also component outputs which i do not use
    with regard to interlaced i am not sure what it is but it is the same as that used by the arcam fmj dv27 same module
    hope this helps
    many thanks
    [email protected]
     
  20. MarkTaylor

    MarkTaylor
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    If your projector was already doing 3:2 pulldown conversion with NTSC material then you are really just comparing the abilities of the Arcam with the same functions in your projector so the differences may not be huge.

    For me, the main reason for having the Arcam (DV-27) was its ability to output PAL progressive. My plasma also does 3:2 pulldown for NTSC material but like most current plasma's or projectors it did nothing for PAL material. This is where the Arcam really makes a very noticable improvement.

    Mark
     
  21. patmyhead

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    HI mark
    the arcam 88 also out puts pal progressive its the same as yours I have not noticed any difference between pal & ntsc progressive scan
    Just what is 3-2 pulldown & does it work with compositive or progressive or both this is all new to me
    thanks
    [email protected]
     
  22. MarkTaylor

    MarkTaylor
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    Just so we are clear on terminology, the opposite of Progressive would be Interlaced, and the connection method that tends to give the best reuslts is Component, not entirely sure what you are refering to by 'compositive'

    Take a look here for a good description of the 3:2 pulldown process :

    http://www.dvdfile.com/news/special_report/production_a_z/3_2_pulldown.htm

    I suppose I should really have referred to reverse 3:2 pulldown :)

    If you feed an interlaced film originated signal like a movie on a DVD to your projector then it can create a progressive image from it using reverse 3:2 pull down as explained in the example above.

    If you feed it a progressive signal then it does not need to perform the reverse 3:2 process.

    Mark
     

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