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progressive scan on denon dvd 2800

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by dannycox, Dec 25, 2001.

  1. dannycox

    dannycox
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    hello all!!!!


    i have a denon dvd 2800 with progressive scan i also have a sony kp41-ds1 rear projection tv can i run progressive scan on this tv.
    at the moment i use a qed squart silver rgb connection can i run progressive scan through this????


    any hints and tips would be appreciated

    Dan cox(RN)

    Plymouth
     
  2. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
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    No. You need a plasma TV or a projector. Even then it would look average. Progressive scan in DVD players without some kind of upscaling to useful resolutions (like 1280x720) is a waste of time in my opinion.
    What was the result of Gordon's investigation into the Loewe TV? I think the TV is not capable of taking progressive scan input. But someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  3. laurie

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    Progressive scan in DVD players without some kind of upscaling to useful resolutions (like 1280x720) is a waste of time in my opinion.
    Stuart
    Are you saying that my 2800 feeding my 10ht is a waste of time so then you must also be saying the 10ht internal de-interlacer and scaler is better than the Silicon Image chips in the denon!! appreciate your views as to why you think its a waste of time
     
  4. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
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    There are two issues here...de-interlacing and then scaling.

    De-interlacing helps to remove jaggies and some jitter from the image. It also improves the resolution a little.

    Scaling is the next step. In very simple terms, this is where the image is expanded to fill the available resolution of the display device. (Before everyone posts here, I know there's more to it than that, but this explaination will do for now.)

    Danny, if your TV can accept a progessive scan signal then it should say in the manual. Some of the latest Sonys with DRC can, older sets usually can't.

    Laurie, your Sony VW10 can accept a prog scan signal. The question is "Do the benefits of prog scan get wiped out by the projectors own scaling?"

    Spectre is right that you'll get the best results when the signal resolution exactly matches the projectors native resolution. But there can be benefits of giving the projector a de-interlaced signal. I haven't tried the Denon 2800, but have used an iScan with the VW10. I saw a small but perceptable reduction in the amount of jaggies. You should try prog scan from your Denon and judge for yourself if you see these benefits too.

    Regards
     
  5. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    I'm with Chris. The de-interlacing of the DVD2800 is better than the internal capabilities of VPL10.

    My findings so far with Loewe TV were that using the optional VGA input board and using a progressive scan DVD with RGB outs(of which there are only hacked units) gives less aretefacts.

    Gordon
     
  6. ReTrO

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    Gordon: What res will the 40" Loewe go to, higher than the 848x480 of the 32"?

    I would hope they bring out another pro-scan input card for the 40"er otherwise the only easy/legal option for it is an Iscan Pro or Quadscan Elite.


    Cheers
     
  7. Stuart Wright

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    I don't know whether I'm saying that or not as I don't know what a 10ht is or what it can do.
    My point is that the native progressive scan output of DVD players of 480 lines is not enough.
     
  8. laurie

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    I don't know whether I'm saying that or not as I don't know what a 10ht is or what it can do.
    My point is that the native progressive scan output of DVD players of 480 lines is not enough.

    Stuart
    First: the 10ht is the Sony VPL-VW10HT lcd projector
    Second:the 480 lines you are taking about is NTSC!
    Third: 576p is PAL!! native to a pal progressive player
    some Toshiba dvd players in Aust have 540i output resolution or in your terms lines
    cheers Laurie
     
  9. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
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    Yes, 480 lines is NTSC - the only progressive scan output available on progressive scan capable DVD players. No point in talking about PAL progressive here until it exists officially.
    540i is 540 interlaced. We're talking about progressive. What's your point about *some* Tosh players in Australia?
    My point is that most people (here at least) watch DVDs from region 1 at least as much as region 2, so NTSC output is at least as important as PAL output.
    Personally I don't watch much in PAL since it is 4% quicker than it's supposed to be and I can hear the difference.
    Unless you've got a particularly poor projector, you will see the individual lines when you blow the picture up to 6ft+. This is why you need a device to scale the image up to have more lines - e.g. 600, 720 and 960.
    What's the native resolution of your projector?
     
  10. laurie

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    Yes, 480 lines is NTSC - the only progressive scan output available on progressive scan capable DVD players. No point in talking about PAL progressive here until it exists officially.

    1.but it does exists..and many here use it on suitable devices eg Denon 2800

    540i is 540 interlaced. We're talking about progressive. What's your point about *some* Tosh players in Australia?

    2.yes I was off topic here I was trying to say if you you dont like progressive players then these players give a better output to a progressive projector or plasma

    My point is that most people (here at least) watch DVDs from region 1 at least as much as region 2, so NTSC output is at least as important as PAL output.

    3.true but PAL resolution is better without the 3:2 pulldowm problem that NTSC has!
    Personally I don't watch much in PAL since it is 4% quicker than it's supposed to be and I can hear the difference.
    4.cannot argue this point as my hearing may not be as good as yours.
    Unless you've got a particularly poor projector, you will see the individual lines when you blow the picture up to 6ft+. This is why you need a device to scale the image up to have more lines - e.g. 600, 720 and 960.
    What's the native resolution of your projector?so
    5. 750 horz TV lines @1366 x 768 (720p)
    thanks Stuart
     
  11. Endeavour

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    Dan

    I think I am right in saying that the progressive out is only via the component connection and that it does not work through the scart. I also think that your TV won't accept a progressive signal. No mention on the sony uk site anyway.

    I am using mine with a Sony projector which does handle progressive and have just moved to that connection from S-VHS. There is a noticeable improvement but not one so large that I would change a telly to just to get it. It would probably be even less difference with RGB and a SQART lead. No doubt the purists will disagree.
     
  12. dannycox

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    thanks alot for that

    knowing wether progressive is as good as they say is a wonder,so i dont think ill be running out and buying a new rear projector just yet!!!!!!!


    Any other views???????

    Dan Cox(RN)
     
  13. Stuart Wright

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    Laurie, the dvd consortium have not ratified progressive PAL output from DVD players because they forgot to ask for macrovision for PAL when they asked for macrovision for NTSC.
    So there is officially no PAL progressive output from any standalone DVD player. It is not allowed. Any manufacturer openly selling PAL progressive DVD players could potentially get into a lot of trouble.
    You say it does exist and 'many here use it on suitable devices e.g. Denon 2800'. This simply doesn't make sense. You would get progressive output FROM a Denon - not on it. You would get progressive scan 'ON' a progressive scan capable display device such as a plasma screen or projector.

    PAL output may not have 3:2 pulldown problems, but that's irrelevant since PAL progressive doesn't exist from standalone players.

    '750 horz TV lines @1366 x 768 (720p) ' EH??!!!!
    720p is some horizontal resolution - e.g. 1280 by 720 lines. Saying 1366x768 is 720p is like saying black is white.
    That's what 720p means - 720 progressive scan lines.

    Anyhow, one alternative to using a progressive scan DVD player is to use a home cinema PC, where you can set the output resolution and frequency to match that which is most appropriate for your projector. The PC scales the image up to a decent resolution and outputs at a decent frequency like 75Hz for PAL and 72Hz for NTSC. That way you get NTSC without any 3:2 pulldown problems and you get PAL progressive output.
    Hence you can
     
  14. RichardA

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    OK, can I try and clear up a few technicalities without being flamed!

    Well, I've never heard of 540i ! 540P does exist though (i.e. 1080i timings)
    540i would be pointles as it's lower resolution than you get from the native TV format PAL, which is of course 576i

    576P does exist and is a standard - it's just not one ratified for output from a DVD player made to the DVD Forums rules. Many scalers and de-interlacers have had this feature for years.

    The benefit of using something like the Denon 2800 or an Iscan Pro is that the chip doing the interlacing is better than that generally found in the projector. De-interlacing is only half the story - the resolution still has to be upped to fill in gaps (on CRT) or to fill all the pixels (LCD or DLP). the quality of scaling still varies and so an outboard scaler will still produce better results than the cost-concious version found in most LCD or DLP projectors (and any in a CRT projector) therefore if someone wished to get the best out of a projector it would be prudent to use a de-interlacer AND scaler outside of the projector - however, the easiest halfway stage is to de-interlace and allow the LCD or DLP projector to scale.

    Remember that different rules apply for different display technologies - higher refresh rates do NOT mean better pictures in ALL display types - and it's important to know what is being refered to!

    The topic under discussion in the original thread refered to a TV set (albeit a rear projection unit) not a £10K projector.


    Progressive scan will not be possible on a SCART connector - If you don't have component (Y,Pr,Pb) connections you will NOT be able to connect a Progressive scan source - if you do have these connectors you MAY be able to - but still no guarantees!

    I hope this helps a little
     
  15. laurie

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    OK, can I try and clear up a few technicalities without being flamed!

    Richard the day that happens I will stop posting!!
    I believe most people here are after information and to learn more about their equipement that no manual or sales staff can offer ...the end user is the best source of information and to be able to exchange ideas and info in places such as this makes it such a pleasure I have withdrawn symptons if I dont log in at least one a day!!

    Stuart and Richard and to all others have a happy and progressive(;) new year
    cheers laurie
     
  16. oreoboy13

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    I am currently in the process of buying the Toshiba 36zp18p TV and either the Arcam DV 88 ( upgraded for progressive scan) or the Denon 2800. From what my dealer told me, the only requirement to get progressive scan is to have a progressive scan enabled DVD player and be able to connect via compnent, hence the TV.

    However what i am not sure is wether you need Region 1 dvds.
     
  17. ReTrO

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    You will need a display that can accept a progressive component input. The Toshiba Tv will only accept a standard interlaced input so will not show pro-scan images.


    For the DVD player I would choose the DV88, because you can't use the pro-scan yet, so you could upgarde at a later date when you need it.
     
  18. Aus k

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    "Progressive scan will not be possible on a SCART connector - If you don't have component (Y,Pr,Pb) connections you will NOT be able to connect a Progressive scan source - if you do have these connectors you MAY be able to - but still no guarantees!"

    Endeavour
    My understanding is that Prog Scan Signal simply requires a "component" method of transport. it is nothing to do with SCART. The Aconda AV3 SCART connection IS wired for Component (Y,Pr,Pb) input.
    That's categorically confirmed by Loewe/Linn UK, period. End of story.
    in theory, you could send a prog Scan signal into the Aconda via AV3. However Acondas shipped to PAL regions do not have the circuity to display Prog scan signals. Plus the AV3 cannot suport above 32kHz signals, which is what, i understand a Prog Scan signal needs.
     

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