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Progressive scam?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Sofa1, Jul 1, 2005.

  1. Sofa1

    Sofa1
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    Hello,
    tonight I've connected my Philips 632 DVD through component, switch to progressive scan on DVD and guess what: picture is horrible on the Samsung slim fit WS32Z308. it is too dark and way toooo soft so any changes of picture settings are not much of a help. pictures is miles better with scart connection on RGB TV input. whats wrong with progressive scan, is it really that bad or do I need a better player? IMHO, all those rave words about superior picture with progressive scan is just a plain marketing hype. Whatever, I'd like to hear any other experiences, good or bad as well.
     
  2. Van300

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    Is the Samsung TV Progressive? Progressive scan is only usable if you have progressive scan tv- ie lcd, plasma or dlp.
     
  3. MrNPG

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    I find the same, I get a better picture quality using component with prog scan turned OFF. Presumably my plasma does a better job than my DVD player.
     
  4. Sofa1

    Sofa1
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    you got me here, but in Samsung specs it stated it IS fully progressive scan compatible. Its is HD ready anyway so I think it is capable of displaying progressive scan picture through component input.
     
  5. MarkE19

    MarkE19
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    What type of screen is your TV? LCD, plasma, CRT etc

    If it is a plasma or LCD then it will always display a progressive scan picture as these screens can't display an interlaced picture. The poor picture from your DVD player when outputting a progressive signal could be down to the fact that the deinterlacer in the TV is better than the one in the DVD player.

    Mark.
     
  6. Sofa1

    Sofa1
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    it is CRT TV.
     
  7. Cable Monkey

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    Was it a PAL DVD or NTSC, and does your TV do PAL progressive?
     
  8. Sofa1

    Sofa1
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    yes, it is PAl progressive TV, and DVD does support full PAL/NTSC progressive scan, so it is not a problem.
     
  9. Astaroth

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    Generally speaking pictures will look noticably better with progressive scan images - though there are always excemptions (which prove the rule)

    A TV with a built in de-interlacer may look better when fed by an interlaced source as the built in de-interlacer may be better than the DVD player etc.

    Unfortuantly Samsungs UK website is somewhat out of date as it doesnt even have the model as existing but doing a quick search on the net and it appears to be receiving mixed reviews - though no tech specs to confirm or deny its prog scan ability - the 3 UK retailers I can see online selling it dont even mention that it can do HD.
     
  10. Sofa1

    Sofa1
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    maybe this is the answer.
    anyway, im a little bit surprised, cause the picture looked dark, washed up, and somehow sucked out of sharpness...a whole color palette looked murky :(
    what about better component cables, I dont have dedicated component cables but use instead simple yellow, red and white cable? also tried VanDenHull coaxial but in both cases with same picture results...
     
  11. matisamd

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    You can get different quality antialiasing? thought it was set way, when ever i have used prog scan its always looked sharper and cleaner but then i always suffered from lines when anyone moves :/ which is worse then the noisy image it cleans up whats the point of that :p

    Jeez all i want is a nice pic is that so much to ask :O :D
     
  12. Crustyloafer

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    There a quite a few methods of deinterlacing a picture, and some do a noticeably better job than others. I suspect that the deinterlacer in your TV is better than in the player. Plug in a decent DVD player with a good deinterlacer such as the Arcam DV78 and I think you'll find it's a different story.
     
  13. MarkE19

    MarkE19
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    I've used cheap (but dedicated) component cables in the past. When I upgraded to a cable similar to the Mark Grant component cable the improvement in PQ was IMO massive. I can only assume that going from a low quality audio cable to a decent component cable would give an even bigger improvement in PQ.

    Mark.
     
  14. dejongj

    dejongj
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    One part of the compenents is definitely not working as even with low-quality cables or a lesser de-interlacer than the built-in one the picture should not be so bad that the controls can adjust it....

    Unfortunately there could be a whole range of reasons for this, my guesses would be:
    1. The setup menu within the DVD player is not set correctly resulting in effectively a composite signal being send across the component out....Been there, done that
    2. Are the component cables plugged in all the way?
    3. Are they plugged in the corresponding ports? This can cause that effect, oh and don't necessarily trust the manufacturers coding...I couldn't find the reason why my PS looked bad until I figured out that the manufacturer has messed up the coding...It was the early days of PAL-PS it had to be said and it wasn't a standard yet...But it could be true...
    4. Mix the cables amongst themselves to see whether one is faulty, it should provide different effects...
    5. At what frequency is the PAL-PS output set, and is your TV compatible with it...
    6. Are the connections on the TV side shared with composite? And if so has the TV setup been changed to Component?
    7. Return it as it may just not be fit for purpose...

    BTW Out of interest where are you from, there is very little information available on that equipment and most of it is only in French...
     
  15. Sofa1

    Sofa1
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    Ok, today I bought some kind of better dedicated component cable by the Neotech, it is very thick low noise 75 ohm video cable with good connectors, and things were improved. but, the kind of darker character of picture still remain. somehow, picture is smoother but at the expense of sharpness and that's my real complaint. watching Divx it is harder to spot any digital artifacts due to compression, but at the same time picture is loosing sharpness and brightness.

    and, heh, heh, biggest problem of all, when using component AND progressive you can forget about 100Hz. that's the one. second, and it is even more of a problem for me, using component you can forget change of picture size on TV! it is stuck into 16:9.

    let me explain. many Divx, and DVD as well are in pretty narrow 16:9 format so you need to have some kind of zoom. but, DVD players are usually have unusable and worthless 2x or 4x zoom for Divx. for DVD I have 1,5x zoom, but it is also too much. so, the solution is zoom on TV, which nicely spread picture to fill the screen. but, with component you are not allowed to change picture size on TV anymore.

    well, did somebody know some DVD/Divx player which has some kind of smaller steps zoom FOR DIVX, it would be handy and answer to my problems?
     
  16. gdhog

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    Might be that your Philips DVD player has low quality deinterlacer or/and component output stage is badly designed. Can you try any other progressive capable player to see if it would help?
     
  17. dejongj

    dejongj
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    Sofa, I am really starting to suspect your CRT TV capabilities here...I can't find any specs what-so-ever for that television....I am starting to think that this is a case where the television can accept progressive scan inputs but then actually interlaces the picture again or even just throws away the extra information to stay within its normal cycle...

    Anyway I think you may not understand what progressive scan is either...for example why are you bothered by not having 100Hz? And before you ask that question, first ask yourself why 100Hz was invented for CRT TV's...

    Also it is really odd that the TV is stuck in 16:9, especially so considering that PAL progressive scan (576p) equates to a resolution of 768x576 which is 4:3...It then depends on how the DVD was created to show the image in the correct aspect ratio....Again this is a TV function not a progressive scan limitation....

    Do you have a link to the online specifications of that TV? I can find it only in a handful of online shops without specs and not even on the Samsung website....
     
  18. Sofa1

    Sofa1
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    I have no luck either of finding any more informations than you already have. Samsung is very mysterious about it ;) something more specs you could find about an American model of the very same TV which is called TXR3079. In my manual which comes with TV there is no any technical info. also there are some more info on the Samsung Germany site www.samsung.de


    Yes, it is strange, but through component TV is stuck in 16:9, and any try to change picture size is met with No available. I do understand it is limitation of a TV but don't know why.

    well, picture with 100hz is more stable, no doubt about it, but I'm no so techie to know anything further is it better to have 100hz interlaced or 50hz progressive. But, i do notice slight flickering with 50hz be it progressive or not. and the kind of a problem is, people are tend to discuss things by the book. By the book progressive is better and any further discussions is prevailed by that fact. HDMI is better, period. DVI is better, period, but at the same time in the practice many people have complaints about "better" inputs and many of them are just as disappointed as I am.
     
  19. dejongj

    dejongj
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    Hi Sofa I understand that you are disappointed but if you pardon the expression I really think you are barking up the wrong tree....I'd seriously suspect the TV, the specs maybe very well a mistake taken from its different US cousin....Unfortunately it is still common for the European models to lack in that department...
     
  20. dejongj

    dejongj
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    For comparison to what you have Sofa...I am not surprised that MrNPG has this situation...Reason being that his plasma is in 852x480 resolution this means that without scaling it can not display a full PAL pictures...So even if you bring it a progressive scan feed from the DVD player the displays electronics still have to interfene to scale the picture to fit it...So not once but two times processing the same kind of thing....That's why you hear/read so much about 1:1 pixel mapping capability to get the best possible quality...
     
  21. Eiji

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    Well, the WS32Z308 has a horizontal resolution of 800 lines and the vertical resolution must be around 900 lines so of course it can't display a full 1080i image but is well capable of displaying a PAL progressive image.

    It could be that the TV doesn't use very good component circuitry. Samsung TVs are known to use weak power supplies which causes the picture to "bloom" when a bright image is present.

    I would say in this case that you get what you pay for if the TV is indeed at fault and not the DVD players internal scaler because for £500, the WS32Z308 is quite cheap but isn't performing to its advertised specifications.
     
  22. Stuart Wright

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    Sofa1 I think you need to do a bit of reading as it sounds like you don't appreciate what exactly progressive scan is, why the frequency is important (i.e. you probably don't want a fixed 100Hz set!) or by the sounds of it what aspect ratios you're getting. I suspect when you say 'narrow 16x9 format', you are seeing movies in their correct 1.85:1 or 2.35:1 aspect ratios (hardly any/no movies are shot in 16:9 - which is 1.77:1) and you should want to use the zoom facility anyway if you are going to see the movie the way the director intended.
    Anyhow progressive scan is a technology which will always produce a better picture quality than interlaced scan, but the system being used to get progressive scan will have an effect on it from allowing the picture quality to shine through to it not working at all. Your sysem sounds like it's not working properly at all.
     
  23. Sofa1

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    I don't know why are you and the rest are so upset? I just tried to hear various experiences about progressive scan being the ultimate quality or is it just another marketing hype. With my combination picture is bad, or not that great, otherwise its picture quality is very good. Is it necessary to give me hard time about it? If you can explain something, do it, but stop using your moderator status to call me stupid in a way, or trying to writing me off as an owner of "the bad system" or "not working properly at all" system. I don't care about PR about progressive scan or any other technology, I just want to hear other members about their opinions and so on, that's all.
     
  24. LV426

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    Here's my opinion, then:

    1: For NTSC discs, I use progressive scan via Component from my Pioneer 737 into my Sony VW10. The difference between progressive and interlaced is subtle; there is less flicker or agitation on fine horizontal lines (such as you might find in characters like E in scrolling titles). Overall sharpness, brightness, etc etc are the same either way, all other things being equal.

    2: I also have composite video and SVideo wired up, mainly for other sources. A direct comparison between Progressive-Component and Interlaced-Component and Interlaced-SVideo reveals little difference except as noted above, all other things being equal. This is how it should be.

    3: If my system did not behave in this manner, I would investigate what was wrong with it. Something certainly would be.

    4: Look again at Stuart Wright's designation. He's not merely a moderator, not even merely a Senior Moderator. He owns this place. In any case, if you can't accept his entirely valid suggestion that there may be something wrong with your system, then you are, of course, at liberty to do nothing at all about finding and fixing the problem.
     
  25. chriszzzzzz

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    Sofa1..
    I have the same TV. As i'm about to pay out for a DVD player with component inputs I need to clarify a couple of points. (I'm no Techie)
    In your original post you said you connected the component inputs with the basic red, white and yellow leads. I thought these were for the composite connections?? I had a good picture when I tried the composite route.
    I now have my DVD connected through the SVideo connection and have a very good picture from DVD sources.
    Have you experimented with the scan mode in the picture settings??? Did it make any difference?

    Thanks :)
     
  26. Sofa1

    Sofa1
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    Hello,

    I tried basic red, yellow and white because I don't have any other dedicated component cable at the moment. Then I have tried S-video, but get the best results from RGB scart-scart connection, so you could checked out also this type of connection and decide which one suits you better.

    I'm afraid I don't know what kind of scan mode you're referring to? If you mean natural or digital scan mode, it is unavailable in progressive scan mode. With my DVD player I can get 480p picture through component at 50hz (or even lower, I'm not techie either). So, any 100hz scanning will not work that way, and you can't change picture size on TV because it will stay in 16:9 mode permanently.
     
  27. dejongj

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    Sofa1, if you dont' want to be helped then fine...But I really suggest you use some proper 75Ohm certified cables instead of the red, yellow and white...The frequency of the signals is way to much to deal with the standard cable...

    Also I think you are getting quite rude, people are trying to help you here point in the direction that your telly might be at fault but you are not having it....So tell me one thing...Why are you asking for help if you don't want to hear the answers nor are willing to try out the suggestions...That's the whole point of coming to a forum...

    @LV426: Isn't the comparison to a VW10 a bit different as it has a built in deinterlacer?
     
  28. spocktra

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    I have not found this to be the case.I have tried prog scan with two very well regarded crts[zp48+pd30] and with three dvd player,the latest being a dv78.The results have been very mixed.Some discs look better some look a lot worse.As an example last night i put on million dollar baby and p/s looked rubbish ,dark,too much colour and loss of definition.When i switched to interlaced it improved vastly.My current set up is pd30 tv,dv78 dvd,mark grant reference component.All i can assume is that it completely depends on the disc,what other explanation can be given???
     
  29. dejongj

    dejongj
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    It's odd for that to happen with such a new movie....I've only encountered that with one disc; The Bounty....The source material was just too bad and in PS the faults just got exponentially worse because the PQ was improved, doesn't help watching it on an 8ft screen either as you can notice all faults...It was more enjoyable to watch in Interlaced....
     
  30. Sofa1

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    Pardon me, but since the beggining of this thread you are acting rude about me and accusing me of being rude? I didn't attack anybody or offend anybody and don't understand why are you have such a feeling? because I don't believe in mantra how progressive scan is the end of the world? what did you expect, to say how my perfectly working TV is faulty and be a nice guy?

    also, you didn't read carefully, because I did bought a dedicated component cable, and a very good one with low noise video 75 ohms cable, with a very good gold plated connectors.

    and thank God for that one Spoctra!
     

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