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Prog scan vs. inbuilt doublers

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by RedRose, Nov 13, 2002.

  1. RedRose

    RedRose
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    Getting closer to buying one...

    If the more popular (ie Pan & Pioneer) displays have inbuilt doublers and clever scaling algorithms which, by all accounts, do a very good jobs, then why would a DVD player with progressive output be an advantage? As I understand it, the displays render what is effectively a progressively scanned image from an interlaced source ANYWAY. Am I right or is it more subtle than that?
    Cheers.
     
  2. JamesTapp

    JamesTapp
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    Progressive Scan DVD players carry out the conversion in the digital domain, giving a better quality image instead of line doubling at the end of the display process.

    James
     
  3. CarlB

    CarlB
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    As progressive technology improves so quickly, there is an obvious benefit in keeping your DVD player on the leading edge and just using the plasma purely as a monitor for this progressive signal.

    I also experienced major lip-sync issues when using my interlaced player with the Pana plasma, but since I switched to a Denon 3800 progressive model I have had no troubles at all. The problem is that the Pana does not allow for the processing time to build the progressive image, whereas the Denon does.

    I must also say that the picture is better running my Denon in progressive mode against its interlaced mode (and then letting the Pana do the processing). If you try to upconvert the 480i image you get good results, but you have already lost some detail by converting to 480i in the first place. There is no loss with 480p from the DVD so you get the cleanest, most detailed picture possible.

    Technology moves quickly, and in the 3 - 5 years I will probably keep my plasma I imagine progressive processing will advance even more so it's cheaper to upgrade my DVD to get the best from the technology.
     
  4. RedRose

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    Ouch! Lip sync problems on a £3-4K display, I never heard that mentioned before. Has anybody else seen it? Is the scaler able to be switched off or (if it can) is the picture too jaggy?
     
  5. JamesTapp

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    Do a search in this forum, it has been discussed at length. Tends to be mainly source related. I have yet to see it myself despite using Interlaced Component input for all my sources.

    Some people are more sensitive to it than others.

    James
     
  6. CarlB

    CarlB
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    The problem with lip-sync when using an interlaced source is that it takes a plasma screen roughly 60ms to construct a progressive image from two interlaced fields. Unfortunately I am not aware of any current plasmas that allow for this delay in the way that the majority of good progressive DVD players do.

    I found that some discs would be fine for the majority, and only certain sections of the disc where dialogue had perhaps been looped afterwards were faulty due to the slightly out of sync dialogue compounding the problem. I didn't see any discs with noticeable lip sync problems throughout the entire film, but I did see lip sync issues on most discs at some point. The problem is that the audio leads the video (as the video is delayed by the plasma processing) and this is very unnatural, as we are used to light being faster than sound. This means more people will notice sound in advance of the image than if it were to lag slightly.

    I noticed it often and found it frustrating. I have not seen a single instance since switching to progressive on the Denon 3800. As an added bonus to the improved picture quality with progressive out from the Denon, the lip sync resolution was the clincher for me...
     
  7. RedRose

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    So given that PAL (R2) discs are not progressive from what I've gathered from other forums, does this mean that there might always be a problem with R2 lip sync?
     
  8. Phatboy

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    Carl

    does your dennon 3800 do pal prog?
     
  9. CarlB

    CarlB
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    Yes, my Denon does Pal progressive and very fine it is too!

    It's PAL-P, multiregion and chroma bug free. I have over 400 discs, most region 1 and haven't found a single disc that will not play in the Denon yet.

    It's superb.
     
  10. Phatboy

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    I though that the 3800 was only NTSC prog out of the box.

    did you buy it already upgraded?
     
  11. CarlB

    CarlB
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    Yep I bought it fully firmware upgraded and with fully 2yrs warranty. It's fantastic.
     
  12. Phatboy

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    Carl

    can you let me have the details?

    Who from how much etc?

    Pm me if you like
     
  13. sapper

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    Carl/Phatboy

    Id also be interested in the denon 3800 progressive Pal/NTSC scan out.

    Adrian
     
  14. KBDVD

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    CarlB, Phatboy,sapper,

    I too would very much like to know where the Denon 3800 is obtainable from and for how much, in it's PAL + NTSC Progressive Output guise!

    Best Regards,
    KBDVD.
     
  15. installer09

    installer09
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    I have one also , paid £850 for mine from Audio T , with multi region , pal progresive and 3 years warrenty. Like Carl I have lots of region 1 disk and its been perfect so far.
     
  16. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    I'm pretty sure that progressive DVD players actually take the analogue component data after it has come off the mpeg chip then turn it back in to digital domain for de-interlaacing. The lack of this digital to analogie to digital conversion is one of the areas that gives HTPC an advantage.

    There is, of course, more to it than that. How well the device can handle bad edits or sections fo video source material within Film source material, jumping to the correct type of algorithm in the process, will affect overall performance. Then with off board scalers or third party scaling cards you are also looking at how well they can edal with s-video or cpmposite or transoding of YPrPb o RGB.

    Then, as has been mentioned there is the whole lip-sync thing. The new Key Digital card will have Digital and Analogue audio input with a delay built in to compensate for the amount of time taken for de-interlacing and scaling.

    Gordon
     
  17. JamesTapp

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    Gordon,

    This is of course perfect if you run your audio through the plasma, but if (like me) you run everything through the amp, the delay needs to be inserted at the amp stage doesn't it?

    Thanks,

    James
     
  18. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    It delays the audio in either digital or analogue form through the plasma. You could, in theory, feed the digital out of your DVD through the board in the plasma and on to your amp. The same for the stereo left and right outputs of a VCR or non digital out sky box. Better than nothing.....

    It'd be more logical to do it at the amplifier of course.

    Gordon
     

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