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prog scan DVD with CRT projectors

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by owenw, Sep 23, 2003.

  1. owenw

    owenw
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    Hi Guys,

    This may have been asked a million times before.
    I just got a PAL prog. scan DVD player (Sony DVP-NS930V)
    Can this be used with a PJ such as the Sony VPH-D50?

    I eventually want to build a HCPC to get the best possible PQ but for the time being would this setup give me a reasonable picture?

    Thanks
    Owen
     
  2. cosaw

    cosaw
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    Don't know much but aren't all CRT projectors more inherently progressive anyway? (not sure about the really early ones) The question is how to connect player to pj to achieve prog scan. Someone will know, HCPC should do it no probs I would have thought.

    I'll probably go Sony 1272QM fed progressively from HCPC for dvds.

    Best of luck!

    cosaw
     
  3. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    CRT's generally need external video processing in order to display an image progressively.

    The D50 didn't originally accept progressive images on it's component inputs I think. You may have to use a transcoder to turn YPrPb signal from your DVD player in to RGBHV which the projector will definately accept

    Gordon
     
  4. owenw

    owenw
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    Thanks for the replies guys.

    I've been thinking about getting a 1272QM too (been trying to get my head round the techology without asking the same old questions)

    Then I was flicking through the CRT Projectors site and my beady little eye noticed the words component the D50 specs which prompted the post.

    Gordon, is a transcoder pricey and will the picture be good?

    What about a scaler for use with the Sony 1272? Or would I be better putting a HCPC together?

    cheers,
    Owen
     
  5. ReTrO

    ReTrO
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    A D50 should take a progressive feed through it's components input. It's worth finding out the serial number first though as some older versions won't.
     
  6. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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    This needs a detailed responce really and I don't have time right now.
    So just quickly
    From memory the D50 will take progressive YUV. (will probably have to set the PJ to HDTV as the input.

    Transcoder comes out at about £230-250 which will then feed an RGB signal to the projector 1272 will love it as would the D50.

    Expect to run both a D50 and 125* /127* at about 800*600 resolution. in 16x9 mode any thing more and the scans will over lap and the picture will look soft.
     
  7. owenw

    owenw
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    Is there a big difference between the PQ on these 2 PJs?

    I look forward to a more detailed post when you have time Roland
     
  8. cosaw

    cosaw
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    If you know how to build your own PC and enjoy/are familiar with tweaking software/hardware then why don't you go the HCPC route. From what I've read it's cheaper, more versatile and I beleive a PC will output an RGBHV signal without transcoder type stuff inbetween. Your PJ should then be able to accept this for prog scan. Put that £230-250 (as Roland quoted) towards a PC perhaps? And, so I'm told, you can get picture quality equal to any other route (more cheaply perhaps?) if you put the work in (tweaking and that).

    Owenw, I'm in the same situation as you: no PJ no HCPC. But I'm looking to go similar spec as yourself but almost definitely the HCPC route.

    Perhaps check out the HCPC forum?

    cosaw
     
  9. owenw

    owenw
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    Yep that's my ultimate goal Cosaw. I've been building PC's for years (professionally at one time) but was considering using my existing DVD player in the short-term until I get around to building a HCPC.

    All my PC's are in use for work sadly and I don't want to build one now and then wait 6-12 months to get the PJ cause it'll be in need of an upgrade.

    Think I'll wait and save up to get the PJ, HCPC parts and screen in one go instead of buying it bit by bit.

    Well, I've been working through the HCPC forum for the last 8 months trying get my head round it all :)

    Good luck with your plans Cosaw

    Owen
     
  10. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    I'd confirm the YPrPb 576P is compatible with the D50 as I know of at least one application where the D50 wouldn't work with this format. Transcoders are available from the CRT suppliers I am sure you'll find. They are under £200 I'd think.

    D50 is prettier and has more memories allowing aspect ratio control for one. 1272 would require external videoprocessor to do aspect ratio control. HTPC or a Lumagen Vision would be nice partner for either.

    Gordon
     
  11. cosaw

    cosaw
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    Going back to your original post, noted that your dvd player was a sony. Same here (for my telly), basic model not prog scan: DVP-NS305. Anyhow seemed to remember on my model I've the option of RGB out through the scart. (I don't think this is the case with many european players but am unsure) Therfore it should at least be the same on your higher spec Sony. Had a look in the operating instructions: it confirms that you can choose (in one of the menus) video, s video, or RGB as output from the scart of the player so you can taylor it to your display device.

    This would seem like good news for you as a transcoder shouldn't be neccesary, just plug dvd player to projector. I would think the pics should be great.

    I think the cable you will need is scart to 4 or 5 BNC. So that'd be scart to RGBS or scart to RGBHV. The S is sync and the HV version just means that the sync is seperated into Horizontal and Vertical. Your player may be the deciding factor but I think 5 is better. For an example scart to 4 BNC I found this link (second cable down):http://www.ellie.co.uk/acatalog/Cables.html

    Hope this helps, and hope I'm right, I'm only a beginner in crt pjs myself!

    cosaw
     
  12. cosaw

    cosaw
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    Gordon

    I'm unsure what you mean. Would this be in addition to a HTPC or would the HTPC do the job fully?

    Thanks.

    cosaw
     
  13. owenw

    owenw
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    I could be wrong but I think what he means is because it's a data projector it doesn't have any built in widescreen aspect ratios so you need an external device to do that for you. Otherwise you're stuck with 640x480 or 800x600 standard computer display sizes which will squish the image on widescreen movies.

    I've been wondering about whether the RGB signal from an AV device (such as a DVD player or Sky Digital ) is the same as RGB from a PC?

    The NS930 DVD player can output RGB and S-Video (interlaced only) and component (interlaced or progressive)
    so it would still have to be deinterlaced somewhere along the way. Is there an internal deinterlacing board availalble for the 1272?

    I'm more and more leaning towards the HCPC route as it would work out a similar price but would be much more flexible cheaper to keep up to date with the technology.

    I'm also interested in the Holograph3D cards (a tad pricey at the mo, but eventually I'll try and get me mitts on one, along with a Barco Cine 12 or an ONYX.... *drift*

    ....and a 60" plasma for the bedroom..... :D
     
  14. cosaw

    cosaw
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    Don't see why not, the sync would be fixed from any other AV device and variable with a PC depending on refresh rates etc.

    Are you sure, seems ashame afterall if the the player is progresive why output interlaced? So with component progresive I think you'd need the transcoder to get progresive RGB to your pj.

    So yes any other way and you'd need to deinterlace it would seem. I'm pretty sure there isn't a deinterlacing type board for the 1272. Whether projectors with onboard line doublers do the same thing I don't know (As far as I know line doubling video essentially makes it progressive). I think otherwise this would need to be done externally.

    cosaw
     
  15. owenw

    owenw
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    I agree it's odd they only output Prog scan from the component OUT. Presumably they only envisage people using a Rear Pro, Plasma or LCD projector screen with prog scan, all of which use component connections rather then with professional gear adapted for home cinema use! :)

    I just checked the DVD player manual. In a note about prog. scan processing it says:

    "When you play video based software with progressive signals, sections of some types of images may appear unnatural due to the conversion processwhen output through the CPOMPONENT VIDEO PUT jacks. Images from the S VIDEO OUT and LINE OUT (VIDEO) jacks are unffected as they are output in the normal (interlace) format"

    I got the impression line-doublers and deinterlacers were functions of the one device or add-on board.

    It think HCPC is the way to go

    Owenw
     
  16. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    HTPC can do aspect ratio control with correct software. 1272 is not limited to PC resolutions but will only have one geometric shape per incoming scan rate. So if you set it up for anamosphicly enhanced discs then play a 4:3 disc you get short fat folk.......whereas an HTPC or video processor would create black bars at sides and give you a correct 4:3 shape inside a a16:9 image.

    The D50 would be able to have several different geometric shapes per scan rate. Using an external video processor or HT[C will give you superior picture anyway so do that.

    Gordon
     
  17. cosaw

    cosaw
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  18. cosaw

    cosaw
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    Gordon

    This might put me off the 1272 then. Can you get round this by tweaking the scan rate with something like powerstrip to get the pj to accept 4:3 and 16:9? How do the memory blocks factor into this?

    Is Roland incorrect or does he mean something else when he says "Multiple aspect ratio capability for same source" (see bottom of page":
    http://www.b4projection.co.uk/products/usedprojectors/Lauren.htm

    I'd want to use a 4:3 screen so I can run 4:3 in 4:3 and 16:9 in 4:3 thus maximising phosphor use. Doing 4:3 in 16:9 is an ineffective use of phosphor surely concentrating more wear on centre of tube?

    Should I conclude that the 1272 is not for me?

    Hope I'm not wasting your time. Us newbies are a nuisance :blush:

    cosaw
     
  19. owenw

    owenw
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    Thanks for the links Cosaw.

    Am I right in thinking the 1272 cannot display HDTV (1080 lines) if 800x600 is the optimum resolution?

    Us newbies are a nuisance but, hey, we'll be buyers too :)
     
  20. ReTrO

    ReTrO
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    1080i is only 540 lines, so that's ok. I'm not 100% on the horizontal res, I think it's 1920, dunno if that would be an issue though.
     
  21. cosaw

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    ReTrO

    I can see the reasoning behind this but fail to understand it fully. One interlaced trace would be a line in itself wouldn't it? Therefore 1080i would take up more vertical phosphor than 540p lines. Or is an interlaced trace half the thickness of a proper line or do the lines overlap by 50% in interlaced mode? How does it work?

    Owenw

    Res in brochure as download is stated as:
    "700TV lines (video in)
    1500 x 1200 pixels (RGB in)"
    What does this mean in real terms, I'm not completely sure?

    I'm unsure but: I've often heard 800x600 quoted as an optimum resolution for widescreen aspect ratio i.e. 16:9. Therefore a 4:3 ratio could have a higher vertical res because of the increased vertical amount of phosphor. A figure oft quoted as 1024 x 768 I think. Following retro's reasoning 1080i should be possible in both. But if anything lines would be more likely to overlap at 16:9. Is HDTV 4:3 or 16:9?

    1272 (and others) spec (here quoted 1600 x 1200?): http://www.crtcinema.com/sonyspecs.html

    Other specs (click on the different pjs):
    http://www.crtcinema.com/inventory.html

    cosaw
     
  22. owenw

    owenw
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    And 1080i is most likely the HD format that will be adopted in the UK since the hardware is commonly available.

    I think HDTV can be broadcast in both 16:9 and 4:3. They have been broadcasting HDTV in the US for some time but in 4:3 aspect. AFAIK widescreen hasn't made a big dent in the US market yet.

    Yes, Roland @ B4 said recently that the Sony 1272 can handle a resolution of up to 1024x768 for 4:3 aspect ratio and 800x600 for 16:9, after that the lines begin to overlap.

    Setting the 1272 at 1600x1200 would probably push it quite hard and shorten it's useful lifespan.
     
  23. edd

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    all th di def i saw in america was 16:9. i didnt see any 4:3 stuff.

    edd
     
  24. cosaw

    cosaw
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    Yeah I wish the americans would "get with the programme" afterall we always have to wait till it happens in the states before we get it here. But as regards what edd says, they may be warming to the idea.

    It would seem so but I wish they'd go straight to broadcasting progresive even at a lower res it would be preferable.

    Yep, if only things were simple. I suppose you've got to find the sweetspot and 800 x 600 should extract the full res for dvd and that's all I'm really woried about.

    cosaw
     
  25. bambam_101

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    on the subject of the D50 and the 1272, which in your guys opinion is the better of the two? I want to be able to run only HD and DVD through a HTPC and just curious as to which offers the best PQ of the two? Assuming similar condition tubes on both. I know the 1272 is older but in my opinion, newer is definately not always better. Ive seen the 1272 running and was quite impressed but am yet to see a D50.

    Cheers

    Scott
     
  26. Erling

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    I'm not familiar with the 1272, but if it resembles my 1292 in the way it handles and stores various scan rates, you could perhaps do more or less the same as me.

    I use Powerstrip on a HTPC to feed the projector various resolution / refresh rates depending on the DVD being watched.

    For 16:9 or anamorphic DVDs, I use the resolution 1440x960, with either 72 or 75 Hz refresh, for NTSC and PAL DVDs respectively. On the projector, which recognizes these two settings as two different setups, I have done a 16:9 squeeze via the RGB size control for both.

    For 4:3 DVDs, I use 1440x1152, again with either 72 or 75 Hz refresh. On the projector, I've set these two inputs up as 4:3.

    The 1292 groups inputs into various memory blocks, depending on the horisontal scanning frequency. Each block can hold more than one setup, so it still remembers them all, even though they may end up in the same block.
    I wouldn't be surprised if the 1272 works much the same way, but better check with someone who knows for sure.

    The resolution/refresh on the PC is easily changed via Powerstrip desktop icons, one for each resolution/setting. With this procedure, I can both get the full benefit of anamorphic DVDs, and at the same time have a large 4:3 image.

    Ideally, I should be able to have both a 16:9 and 4:3 setting on the projector for the same resolution/refresh, to get the best scaling wise. (1440x960 is twice the resolution of an NTSC DVD, while 1440x1152 is twice a PAL DVD's resolution). With the way the projector handles and stores various scan rates, this is not possible. The above mentioned settings are a fair compromise though, and 1440x960 is more or less the sweet spot for the 1292 with 16:9, so the result is not so bad after all.

    For a 1272, you'd probably have to lower the resolutions somewhat, but the same basic principle could most likely be applied.

    Cheers,
    Erling
     
  27. Barcoing Mad

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    I think you'd be quite happy with 576p at 50 Hz for PAL DVD, and 480p at 48,60 or 72 Hz for NTSC. It is important not to use a scan rate too high for your PJ (horizontal san rate = refresh rate x number of scan lines).

    If going the HCPC route- reClock, powerstrip and Zoomplayer are necessities when using DVD software players in order to achieve juddder free playback.

    For analogue capture and scaling, I've had success with the Sweetspot card
    + DScaler.
     
  28. Vince M

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    Be careful when you use Transcoders,the Keene ones will only do 480p and 576p and lose in the lower registers of the greyscale when converting to RGB.
    The ideal is a transcoder that allows 720p and 1080i.
     
  29. Vince M

    Vince M
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    ..I would also pick the 1272 over the D50 in a heartbeat! the 1272 handles 720p easily.Resolves far better than the D50-.
     

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