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Problems with Limit DV9900se

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by stevelup, Jan 8, 2003.

  1. stevelup

    stevelup
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    Hi

    I bought the above player from Richersounds today to partner my Sanyo PLV-Z1 projector.

    All I can say is that I am utterly disappointed with it.

    My old player (Toshiba SD-220) absolutely outshines it by an order of magnitude.

    In fact it is so bad I think it might actually be faulty.

    On the component connection, there is a ghost to the right of everything which is about 10 pixels wide. RGB through SCART looks fine but of course is no use!

    The Toshiba connected to the exact same cables is pin sharp.

    An interesting point is that if I use some shorter cables directly to the projector, the problem is marginally reduced. It seems as if the component output is not properly impedence matched or something...

    My main cables to the projector are fairly long (20M or so) but they are high quality van-damme mini-coax so I can't see that as the cause of the problem (especially considering the Toshiba works perfectly as do my PC, Laserdisc and Tivo).

    Also, I found the overall image to be very soft compared with the Toshiba until I turned up edge enhancement on the menu (which then made everything look dreadful...)

    So what's the verdict? Have I got a duff one, or am I expecting too much from a Chinese OEM player? I know it's cheap but it is still twice the price of the Toshiba SD-220!

    I would appreciate comments from other owners of this unit.

    Many thanks,

    Steve
     
  2. dejongj

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    Considering that there are so many happy owners I guess you have a duff one.......

    Return it now....
     
  3. stevelup

    stevelup
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    Hi

    Just got home and tried another unit. Exactly the same.

    On overall soft picture with nasty ringing effects to the right of any bright objects.

    I will be returning this for a refund.

    I can only assume that those who had positive things to say about this machine are either a) not using it with a projector and long cables or b) haven't seen anything better.

    Whilst the ringing problems over long cables are obviously to do with the unit not having a very stiff video output, the overall image quality is no better when I sit it directly underneath the projector and use 2M component cables.

    I can tell you 100% categorically that the Limit player is no match for the Toshiba SD-220, let alone other more expensive machines.

    I will wait for the Philips player I think!


    Steve
     
  4. z5461313

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    Hi

    I use long cable run to a projector. I have a Sanyo PLV30 projector fed with 20M cable using the component out from the Limit

    I do not get the problems you mention. I get a detailed, clear and stable picture and I have tried many DVD players

    Have you tried both the interlaced and progressive modes to see which is better or worse? You press the P/I button to switch between the two in stop mode
     
  5. stevelup

    stevelup
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    Hi

    Yes, I have used both progressive and interlaced.

    Perhaps my local Richersounds has a bad batch as both machines I have had exhibit the problem.

    To make matters worse, the display model was doing pretty much the same thing when connected directly to an LG Plasma. The staff in store said this was normal...

    Do you have the Shrek DVD by any chance? If so, perhaps you could do a little test for me?

    If you pull out your Pr and Pb leads to leave you with a black and white picture, then put the Shrek DVD in. After the Dreamworks intro, you get the language selection screen. On this screen, the boxes around the currently selected language show the fault *very* clearly - you can see a complete ghost image of the box displaced 5% to the right.

    I have seen three of these machines do this now!

    Steve
     
  6. z5461313

    z5461313
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    Hi Steve

    I can't try that for a while as I am not with the projector. Really sorry to hear about your problem though

    Which Richer Sounds do you goto. I got mine from Leeds and the second one was ok. My first Limit paused sometimes when playing so I got a replacement. It is fine but I think perhaps there are some duff ones out there

    I think if they cannot demonstrate one that you like in the shop with the plasma then perhaps their whole batch is duff
     
  7. stevelup

    stevelup
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    Hi

    I really do think I will just return it for the time being.

    There are a few budget players in the pipeline which will have the Faroudja Sage 2200 chipset in them.

    I will either get the Philips or try one of the other budget machines when they materialise.

    The second machine RS gave me wasn't new - there was no protective film on the display, or the tapes holding the CD drawer. So this was obviously another customer return.

    I think there must be a flawed batch kicking around...

    Steve
     
  8. z5461313

    z5461313
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    Hi

    Yes a new one should have that protective film on. I found the Richer Sounds service very good in Leeds.

    It does not sound so good if they are giving you a previously returned model.

    I would agree if you are not happy with it then return it and wait to see what comes out in the future

    I bought it because of the initial comments that first came out were very favourable with the PLV30 which I have. With the PLV30 I do get a good picture
     
  9. Guest

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    I can only assume that those who had positive things to say about this machine are either a) not using it with a projector and long cables or b) haven't seen anything better.

    'Fraid I have to agree with that :(

    Picked one up to compare with my Phillips 963SA and to use as a possible bedroom player, and there is no comparision. It's gone back....
     
  10. Underscore

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    Have to say that, when I first read this thread, I thought "Well, thank goodness mine doesn't do that". Then, last night, I noticed it twice: once on the menus for my new Little Shop of Horrors DVD (black lettering on white background) and also on T2 (the bit where the T1000 visits John's foster parents). I've gone back and flicked through the films that I've watched before and couldn't spot the effect and, also, it wasn't visible if I changed to interlaced. Coincidentally, both discs on which I've noticed it are NTSC - don't know if that is coincidence. Anyway, I will be returning mine today (may try another, not sure) but I've now seen what PS can do for a projector (Z1 with 9m cables) so I might end up with a Philips 963SA yet...

    _

    P.S. I'm fairly certain that mine was also a customer return. TBH, if you want to be able to trial machines like RS offer, you have to accept that they aren't going to further discount the returns. I don't have a problem with being given a machine that someone else has tried, I do have a problem if it isn't a good machine for the money!
     
  11. dejongj

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    I can see two trends happening here....

    1. Looks like returned players are being given to customers who are returning their faulty player. This is bad practise ofcourse.
    2. Also I have now heard several reports all using the Sanyo Z1 project where they can't see any difference between Interlaced/Progressive or find the picture not very good.

    To be honest I get quite offended by remarks that the people who are reporting good results don't know any better or are not using long cables.

    1. As per my initial reports you can see that I have got experience with the Arcam & Cyrus dvd players which I had on loan. The demo I had in the shop with the Sanyo PLV-30 (and the Panasonic, Sony & Toshiba projectors) for 3 hours was with a Meridian reference player. I can tell the difference.
    2. I have also reported that I am using 24ft long Supra AV3 component cables. Actually I have made an installation fault which should affect the picture as this cable is laying next the the 24Ft sVideo cable and the 24Ft power cable....You are not alone here mate....

    I am really sorry to hear that you have got so many problems with the Limit players, but I do not think you have objectively looked at all posibilities.

    Anyway if you do not like it fair enough, get another player but please do not start slagging off other peoples ability and their credibility. Ensure that actually all components are working properly and that you don't get returned another duff one.

    PS. I do not have any shares in Limit nor Richer Sounds so I couldn't care less whether you get one or not, I do care about my own credibility.

    Cheers,

    Jean-Paul
     
  12. stevelup

    stevelup
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    Sorry,

    I was not having a go at you. All you said in your earlier post was:-
    You didn't actually say you had one! Therefore my comment was not directed at you.

    It is worth noting that Underscore had not previously noticed the problem until he looked for it. It is possible that this applies to others.

    I apologise for any offence I caused you but I assure you it was not directed at you (or anyone else!).

    Steve
     
  13. stevelup

    stevelup
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    Hi

    The problem is indeed much more noticible in progressive mode than in interlaced mode.

    The explaination for this is quite obvious when you think about it.

    The horizontal scan frequency in progressive mode is twice that of interlaced mode. Therefore any problems with the video output which are manifesting themselves in the horizontal plane will be doubled.

    I am now absolutely certain that the problem is simply the quality of the line driver in the player. It simply isn't properly capable of driving a long (properly terminated) cable.

    Different display devices have different input circuitry which will affect this in different ways - it seems that this machine simply does not want to get on with the Z1...

    One thing I could try is to use some kind of video buffer between the player and the projector but I am pretty loath to do this. It should just work in the first place!

    Steve
     
  14. dejongj

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    Steve,

    Point taken and thanks for the explanation.

    Yeah you are quite right and Puddleduck does not have a Z1 projector.

    Still to me it sound very much like the progressive scan error that was present on the early Sanyo PLV-30, they had big problems in displaying progressive scan. The later ones have had that fixed as I can confirm myself. I sincerrely hope that this is not the case with the Z1 and that the Philips 963SA is doing the trick for you Steve.

    Thanks for your reply :D

    Jean-Paul
     
  15. stevelup

    stevelup
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    Hi.

    My cables are more than twice as long as yours though at just under 20M.

    As I mentioned in my original post, the magnitude of the problem is directly related to the length of the cable.

    Steve
     
  16. stevelup

    stevelup
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    Sorry, I meant Underscore. I have edited my original post.

    Steve
     
  17. dejongj

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    And guess what...Underscore is using a Z1 again :confused:

    Maybe I am seeing thing but most of the picture quality problems reported with the Limit there are Sanyo Z1 projectors involved. All PLV-30 owners are very happy. I really hope there is not a compatability problem here...

    20 Meters is incredibly long, may I ask how large your screen is? Are you not making the same mistake as I did and have power-cables next to them? What make of component cables are you using, as 20 Meters you need the best quality you can get...

    But you also say that using a 2M connection makes very little difference in your first post.....

    Regards,

    Jean-Paul
     
  18. z5461313

    z5461313
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    It does look like a compatibility problem with the Z1
     
  19. stevelup

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    Hi
    No i didn't! I said:-
    The 2M cables virtually eliminated the ringing but I still wasn't happy with the picture quality.
    My screen is 100" diagonal. The cables are not running with any mains cables. Each cable is an individual core of van-damme 75-ohm broadcast quality co-ax.

    I am in agreement with everyone that there seems to be an issue using this player with the Z1 projector. It does ultimately seem to be rooted in the fact that the Y output on the Limit player hasn't quite got enough grunt.

    All my other sources XBOX (component), Tivo/Sky(RGBs), PC (RGBHV) and Laserdisc (S-video) work perfectly, not to mention my Toshiba SD-220 DVD player.

    I'll just take it back. I guess that anyone who is thinking of using the Z1 with thi 9900SE should arrange to test it first before buying.

    Steve
     
  20. hermand

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    For what its worth -

    I connected my Limit up to my Panny PTAE100 with progressive last night for the first time. Didn't do a lot of testing but first impressions were:

    1) Noticeable improvement in picture over my old Sony 336 (which was connected by s-video) - it seemed the picture was more akin to if my CRT telly was that big, as opposed to an LCD PJ - I s'pose that means it was 'smoother' (whatever that means - I'm making this up as I go along), and definitely gave an impression of less screen door. It may also have improved my perception of contrast, and looked more 3d - but this may just be my mind playing tricks on me because I've seen other people say stuff like that.

    2) Colours did seem muted compared to the s-video connection (think I've seen this mentioned elsewhere) Of course these can be adjusted on both the PJ and DVD, so this can be compensated for.

    3) Did not notice any picture glitches (but to be fair was not really looking for them). FWIW I was using only R2 Pal discs, and a 10m Component cable.

    4) Sound-wise - as far as I can tell no different from the Sony it replaced.

    Overall am happy with the player for 200 quid. Was waiting for the philips to come out, but got bored, and plumped for the limit.
    Build quality is not the best, but my sony packed up after only 2 years, so go figure. I'll be happy if this one beats that (and to be on the safe side I took out the 3yr extended warranty from RS)

    Cheers

    Herman
     
  21. Underscore

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    Snap.

    There does seem to be a high correlation. However, on the AVS board, someone (Puddleduck?) posted about ghosting problems with the Z1 and a 963SA. Could the problem actually lie with the Z1?

    BTW, Have Philips sorted the lip-sync issues on the 963SA on 576p yet?

    _
     
  22. stevelup

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    Hi
    No i didn't! I said:-
    The 2M cables virtually eliminated the ringing but I still wasn't happy with the picture quality.
    My screen is 100" diagonal. The cables are not running with any mains cables. Each cable is an individual core of van-damme 75-ohm broadcast quality co-ax.

    I am in agreement with everyone that there seems to be an issue using this player with the Z1 projector. It does ultimately seem to be rooted in the fact that the Y output on the Limit player hasn't quite got enough grunt.

    All my other sources XBOX (component), Tivo/Sky(RGBs), PC (RGBHV) and Laserdisc (S-video) work perfectly, not to mention my Toshiba SD-220 DVD player.

    I'll just take it back. I guess that anyone who is thinking of using the Z1 with thi 9900SE should arrange to test it first before buying.

    Steve
     
  23. Swamp Donkey

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    Tosh component outs are particularly good.

    I have a Z1 hooked to a an Arcam 88P via 18m of component cable. The differences between PAL component and PAL PS component on the ARCAM are slight. Improves jaggies and stability of picture.

    The Limit uses the Vardis chipset as the ARCAM but is no performance match.

    I'd wait a few months. There are some good Official PAL PS players coming along in the next few months in the £250-£350 retail bracket.

    Hope this helps
     
  24. stevelup

    stevelup
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    Hi

    Thanks for your feedback. I have returned the unit and will wait a while before diving in again.

    Next time I think I will wait until someone else with a Z1 tries one first :)

    Steve
     
  25. dejongj

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    I agree Swamp Donkey....I think the year 2003 will make PAL progressive scan players as common as anything....

    If you want to be the first you will have to make some sacrifices, i.e. pay more or settle for something that is perhaps not ideal...

    Personally I do not think the 88P+ is worth the money, although my wife thinks it is purely on looks ;-)...I went down the cheap road for now and got the Limit....

    Except for the remote control there is absolutely no problem with it in my configuration. I have no problem with the remote control as I use the machine to watch a movie and not browse the Internet or different channels on Sky....

    I have now also read several problems with the 963SA on avsforum, menu's and OSD handing, large pauses on discs. Guys and girls lets not forget that all these machines are computers running software and software=bugs. I got to make daily decisions whether the bugs are an acceptable risk to be released or not.

    But if you want it cheap don't like the Limit for whatever reason and prefer a Sony/Tosh/Panny etc...just wait a few months and they will be available plenty... (My famous last words...)

    Fully agree with you Swamp Donkey...

    Cheers,

    JP
     
  26. dejongj

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    I have read some good reports when using the Denon 2800 and 88P+ on avsforum. But they are considerably more money....
     
  27. z5461313

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    As a note here I noticed that the Arcam progressive and interlaced modes are nearly identical ( some stair stepping correction )

    This is exactly the same as the Limit

    What is happening to the new DVD players? How are they making their interlaced outputs look like progressive outputs?

    I think its a good thing as the colours seem better in interlaced

    I am sorry people are having problems with their Limits
     
  28. Underscore

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    Well, I have just returned mine. Full marks to RS for the service - they took it back and gave a full refund, no questions asked. I popped one of the discs on which I saw the ghosting into their demo model on the LG Plasma and there was no obvious ghosting - but they were only connected by a 1m set of interconnects. I would like to wait but, having seen what PS can do regarding removing interlace artifacts, I also want a PS player now. Decisions, decisions...

    _
     
  29. Swamp Donkey

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    I have seen the 2800 in operation. It has it's problems.

    If you want the best possible picture go the HTPC route- it's cheaper, but can be hassle. The ARCAM is a reasonable compromise, if expensive.... and it works- have watched about 60hrs films in PAL PS.
     
  30. Guest

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    However, on the AVS board, someone (Puddleduck?) posted about ghosting problems with the Z1 and a 963SA

    Wasn't me :)

    I compared the Limit on a Panasonic AE-300 (I don't have a Z1), and too be honest, I didn't think the Limit was anywhere near as good (and the 963SA is superb as a straight CD player too).

    The Limit looks OK, but I do wonder why anybody would use a budget component as a source with an otherwise high-end setup?
     

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