Problem with recent Freeview update.

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Derek S-H, Apr 23, 2019.

  1. Derek S-H

    Derek S-H
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,798
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Brighton
    Ratings:
    +2,694
    Don't know if I'm posting this in the wrong Forum, but I can't decide if it's a hardware or software issue.

    On Sunday, my Panasonic BWT735 Blu-Ray recorder showed the fairly regular Freeview update banner on-screen, so I clicked okay.

    It updated all the channels and found nothing new, which was fine, but the HD channels now look absolutely appalling with masses of pixelation and image break up. I accessed the DVB Signal Condition sub-menu and it says:

    Signal Quality: 10
    Signal Strength: 0

    However, the SD channels now look markedly better so something has improved!

    Given the choice, I'd always record in HD and I wish I hadn't updated now.

    Is it my hardware or is there a problem with Freeview in the South East I should know about?

    Help!
     
  2. Derek S-H

    Derek S-H
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,798
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Brighton
    Ratings:
    +2,694
    Addendum: I've just accessed the same Signal Condition sub-menu on Freeview SD and it also says:

    Signal Quality: 10
    Signal Strength: 0

    but the picture is absolutely fine!

    Also, both Freeview HD and SD are working perfectly on my Panasonic 4K OLED, so now I'm thinking it might be a hardware problem with the Blu-Ray recorder?
     
  3. k-spin

    k-spin
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2006
    Messages:
    556
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +137
    Is it possible you’ve retuned to a different transmitter (has happened to me before)?

    Try seeing if you have multiple versions of the affected channels somewhere in your guide.

    Can you compare the source to the versions you’re picking up on your TV?
     
  4. Derek S-H

    Derek S-H
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,798
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Brighton
    Ratings:
    +2,694
    Ah, okay, that makes sense.

    The routine is the same: you get the pop up asking you to update the Channel List, you click okay, it searches through the channels for about three minutes, then a pop up called Channel Sorting By Region appears and I click on Best Signal Quality (All Regions).

    I've just turned it on and run through the same process as I always do and the picture hasn't changed.

    I only have two versions of channels in my EPG - HD or SD and only five HD channels which are currently all terrible. I haven't updated the Channel List on the TV and both HD and SD channels are fine, so it would appear that it was the most recent update on the Blu-Ray recorder which is at fault here.

    How did you resolve your problem please because I don't think I have a choice of transmitter and the process is all done by the device?

    Thanks.
     
  5. Derek S-H

    Derek S-H
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,798
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Brighton
    Ratings:
    +2,694
    I think I'll try and return the player to its factory settings and start again, see if that makes a difference?
     
  6. Derek S-H

    Derek S-H
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,798
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Brighton
    Ratings:
    +2,694
    Balls - well, that didn't work.

    I hate it when things suddenly go wonky for no apparent reason.:(
     
  7. Gavtech

    Gavtech
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    21,178
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +7,131
    Try a mains reset ( - mains disconnection for a few minutes.)

    That zero signal strength makes no sense at all.
     
  8. Derek S-H

    Derek S-H
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,798
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Brighton
    Ratings:
    +2,694
    Okay, I made a mistake: both Signal Quality and Signal Strength are actually at 10, I just misread the display (one bar's in grey, the other green, I thought they were both supposed to be green).

    I followed your advice and unplugged the BR recorder from the mains for about 10 minutes. Plugged it back in, switched on, same as before on HD channels. Ran yet another Channel List update and still the same.

    Took some photos: image one is HD, image two SD. Any explanations? Like I said, everything was fine until the most recent Channel List update.

    @k-spin - how did you fix your problem please?

    P1000847.JPG

    P1000848.JPG
     
  9. Derek S-H

    Derek S-H
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,798
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Brighton
    Ratings:
    +2,694
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  10. Abacus

    Abacus
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2015
    Messages:
    743
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    67
    Location:
    Torbay
    Ratings:
    +481
    That looks more like a TV problem, have you tried plugging it into a different HDMI Input with everything set to auto. (Could also be a faulty lead?)

    Check to see if there is a way to input the postcode as this will let the recorder get a more accurate transmitter selection.

    It is usually the HDD that fails in these types of units rather than the box itself. (Although power supplies can fail but in that case it just wouldn’t work)

    Check to make sure you have the latest firmware for the box.

    Check the Freeview website to see if there are any problems with the transmitter.

    NOTE: Having too strong a signal can also cause problems as well as weather conditions.

    Bill
     
  11. Derek S-H

    Derek S-H
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,798
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Brighton
    Ratings:
    +2,694
    Hi Bill

    Thank you for your suggestions.

    Tried a new High Speed HDMI cable and plugged it into a different HDMI input on the TV - no change.

    Recorder won't allow me to be so precise, so I just pick "Best Quality".

    Updated the firmware to the latest edition - no change.

    Went to the Digital UK website and there's no planned engineering work for the Meridian region. And no mention of any transmitter problems on the Freeview website either.

    I must emphasise that there's no problem with either the HD or SD reception through the TV tuners, nor is there any problem with SD reception through the recorder's tuner, it's just the HD tuner/channels that are causing this picture breakup.

    As well as saying that both Signal Quality and Signal Strength are 10, the Bit Error Rate is 0!

    All this started on Sunday night when I updated the Channel List. I've done this numerous times since and the HD channels (Channel 36, I can't receive HD channels anywhere else, I think) are all the same through the recorder, nowhere else.

    Any more suggestions? Anyone else?:(
     
  12. Derek S-H

    Derek S-H
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,798
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Brighton
    Ratings:
    +2,694
    Mod - is it possible to move this Thread to the Freeview & YouView Forum please as I may get alternative answers there?

    Thanks.
     
  13. k-spin

    k-spin
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2006
    Messages:
    556
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +137
    Hi Derek. My issue was resolved in this thread:

    Reception Issues - BBC 4 HD, BBC News HD

    Now that you have confirmed you're getting 10 for both signal strength and signal quality though, I doubt that it is the same problem.

    Which specific HD channels are you having issues with? Might be useful to know if they are all on the same multiplex/transmitter.
     
  14. Rodders53

    Rodders53
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    5,265
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bedford
    Ratings:
    +956
    A few scenarios and checks to make:
    1) This is not a reception issue, but - as already suggested - a hdmi cable/input on TV issue and merely coincidental. Have you tried alternative leads and/or inputs on the TV?

    2)Does your TV aerial feed 'loop through' the recorder? Or are the two fed separately?
    HDMI-aerial cross-interference can cause issues so keep the two apart.
    Also go over any hand made TV plugs, sockets and check them. Remake any suspects, and swap any moulded plug leads with alternatives to be sure. {I once had similar problem on HD channels only, caused by a dodgy connection - I'd pulled a cable when installing a new item in the TV/AV cabinet! doh!}

    3) High pressure weather gives enhanced propagation and, where you live, this can cause interference with reception on one or more multiplexes.
    This is fairly unlikely as the BBC tend to ensure the main PSB multiplex frequencies are the best protected. Also, it tends to occur most around dawn and dusk, and the weather has now changed to be more unsettled. Your predicted reception is available (use <detailed view>) here: DiUK Green is good. Amber and Red make such problems more likely.

    4) Overload. Panasonic sets show 10/10 at wildly different signal levels... My TV showed the same 10/10 both before and after the 10x power increase at Digital SwitchOver.
    Why this could have happened suddenly, makes it even more unlikely in my view. But your location (approx) would allow estimation of signal strength.
     
  15. Derek S-H

    Derek S-H
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,798
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Brighton
    Ratings:
    +2,694
    @Rodders53 - thank you for your reply.

    See my Post#11.

    Yes, the TV aerial does loop through the recorder but it's never caused any issue before. I only have one aerial wall socket so how can I feed this to both devices without creating a loop? And I'll check all the plugs and connections thoroughly again.

    Checked the Digital UK site and HD channel forecast for the Whitehawk Hill transmitter is good reception and Green.

    I did recently purchase and install a power amp, which didn't affect the HD channel reception at the time, but maybe I did dislodge something whilst manoeuvring the TV stand. I am hoping that the update I did on Sunday was purely coincidental too, especially as I've done numerous updates since with no positive effect, plus a factory reset twice.

    Will report back if I can fix it! Was thinking of calling out a TV engineer but you've given me something I can work with myself, so thanks.:)
     
  16. Derek S-H

    Derek S-H
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,798
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Brighton
    Ratings:
    +2,694
    Okay, now I am officially going insane!

    I have tried swopping all leads around and plugging different leads into different connections - all have had zero effect. And all power plugs are fine.

    The only thing I haven't tried is that the aerial cable runs from the wall socket to the recorder, then a black cable (no idea what it's called) runs from the RF Out connection on the recorder to the aerial connection on the TV. I don't know if it's this black cable that's at fault and I don't have a spare to try.

    You have an option of manually scanning TV channels on the recorder, so I did that and found the problematic HD channels (BBC1, BBC2, ITV, Channel 4 and Channel 5 currently on channel 36 on the recorder)) are being duplicated on channel 51.

    Great, I'll just instruct the recorder to manually store them instead of channel 36 so I can compare them! Nope, there's no way to do this that I can see and every time you run the Auto Set Up it automatically defaults to the problematic channel 36 instead.:mad:

    Oh, and the weather's changed!

    Any other suggestions anyone? I really don't want to call a TV engineer, they come here, fiddle with leads for 30 seconds and fix it, then charge me £50!:(
     
  17. Gavtech

    Gavtech
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    21,178
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +7,131
    It may be worth getting a variable attenuator for the aerial.

    It could be that the signal strength is too high on the problem channels ( you mentioned signal strength of 10) and it is that which is producing the break-ups.

    Reducing the signal strength may be all that is required - but beyond that it may be possible to turn the signal down so that you only or preferentially pick up the channels you want during a scan.

    Beyond that, there is only pulling out the aerial during unwanted section of the scan - but that is obviously tricky.

    I thought the Panasonics had some means of scan selection that you could choose such as 'By region' or 'by signal strength'?
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
  18. Derek S-H

    Derek S-H
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,798
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Brighton
    Ratings:
    +2,694
    Thanks Gav.

    Do you mean something like this:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Philex-Var...&s=gateway&sprefix=tv+variable,aps,168&sr=8-1

    I presume that I'd take the aerial cable out of the recorder, plug it into this device, then plug this device into the back of the recorder or do I need any other cables?

    The Panasonic does offer the option of choosing your signal by Region and I tried that, but it still had no effect.

    I had a look at the Freeview website yesterday and there was no mention of the HD signal transmission strength being increased for my area, any idea where I can check for this please?
     
  19. Derek S-H

    Derek S-H
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,798
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Brighton
    Ratings:
    +2,694
    Okay, just found a store in Brighton that sells them so I'll swing by tomorrow and pick one up.

    Will report back if it works!:)
     
  20. Gavtech

    Gavtech
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    21,178
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +7,131
    Another point - Make sure any HDMI leads stay well clear of any UHF leads - because interference can leak from them back into the UHF system and cause breakups.

    This is always worse with HD channels because of the higher frequencies going across the HDMI interface - which is consistent with your symptoms.

    Try other HDMI leads if you have them.
     
  21. Rodders53

    Rodders53
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    5,265
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bedford
    Ratings:
    +956
    Whitehawk Hill has two variations of the main SD and HD muxes for reasons of local news regionality. Labelled as "Meridian ITV" and "Meridian West" by digitaluk.

    Coverage Checker - Detailed View is a Brighton post office prediction.

    I remember BBC from Whitehawk was amended to be the BBC South East variant from Tunbridge Wells; so assume the 'west' would be BBC South from Southampton (as per Rowridge)? But then the digitaluk description for Rowridge is inconsistent.

    So you are - depending on exact location and reception conditions - very likely to get what appear to be "duplicates" stored, although they should be different during the news programmes and these are often stored in the 800s.

    This 'problem' looks set to disappear at the end of this year when there will be a full retune needed, and it looks to me like the filler stops broadcasting with the main transmitter using the same frequencies.

    However check out page 84 of your DMRBWT735EB recorder manual... Panasonic almost always have a manual tune option, and yours should have it from a scan read of it.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
  22. Derek S-H

    Derek S-H
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,798
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Brighton
    Ratings:
    +2,694
    Okay, so I picked up an aerial variable attenuator today.

    It's a tiny device that fits in the palm of your hand and doesn't seem to have any moving parts nor require a battery to work, so maintenance-free.

    I unscrewed the aerial cable from the wall socket and screwed the attenuator into the wall socket, then attached the aerial cable into the attenuator. It was a bit fiddly but it all fitted in the end.

    Switched on the Blu-Ray recorder and the HD picture was still terrible. Bollocks! But then I did a Channel List retune and................................................................it worked! Thank christ!

    I know it was suggested that the Freeview update I did last weekend was purely coincidental, but it was EXACTLY the same time that all the problems started, so I can't help feeling that that was the cause. Of course, I still don't know whether the transmission signal was too strong or too weak, but it all works now so I don't care!

    I just hope that the main Freeview retune later on this year doesn't cause similar problems, but I've learnt so much thanks to this Thread so I won't panic if it does, I'll just try different steps to get it all working again.

    THANK YOU SO MUCH to everyone's help and advice, and sorry you had to read my droning on and on about this. I just hate it when something doesn't work properly and I just have to fix it, plus I've just got used to having a problem-free Freeview HD picture.

    For anyone else reading this Thread, I would strongly recommend that you invest in a variable attenuator if your HD picture starts going wonky. And even if it doesn't, it's worth having one stashed away just in case you do have any problems later on.

    Aerial variable attenuator - £3.50.
    Forum advice - priceless!:clap:
     
  23. Rodders53

    Rodders53
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    5,265
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bedford
    Ratings:
    +956
    More research suggests I've given duff information in the above post #21.

    The transmit antenna at Whitehawk Hill was changed (in October 2017) in preparation for the 700 MHz clearance event later this year. The new cardioid antenna has a null to the SouthEast which was filled with some log periodics and using new frequencies for the three PSB services (which from late this year will also transmit from the main antenna). But almost certainly not, as I thought, a different region.
    mb21 - The Transmission Gallery has the detail, with pictures.

    No wonder some sets are going to be confused.
    But only in some locations in the Brighton area where both are receivable and the receiver tuning algorithms are less than ideal.
     
  24. Derek S-H

    Derek S-H
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Messages:
    3,798
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Brighton
    Ratings:
    +2,694
    Thread bump!:(

    Okay, today when I turned on the TV there was a pop up from Channel 4 saying their SD channels were moving on Freeview and I needed to run the Channel Update program on the TV to continue to receive them.

    Fine, did it and guess what? Yep, the five HD channels have gone wonky like they did on the Blu-Ray recorder.:facepalm: Quickly checked the BR recorder and the HD channels on there are still fine, thank christ.

    I currently have a variable attenuator plugged into the wall aerial socket, the aerial cable plugged into that and running to the BR recorder, then a RF cable running from the BR recorder to the TV as a loop.

    My query is can I plug another variable attentuator into the back of the TV and have the RF cable plugged into this? Will this work or will the two attenuators just end up cancelling each other out?

    I was thinking of something like this:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Philex-Var...prefix=tv+variable,aps,168&sr=8-1&tag=av0c-21

    Or I could just wait until the next channel update, maybe this will sort it all out? I must admit, I'm not too bothered about losing the HD channels on the TV as I don't really watch TV in real time, I mostly record stuff to watch later, so having the HD channels still on the BR recorder is more important.

    Any advice most welcome!:)
     
  25. Rodders53

    Rodders53
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    5,265
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bedford
    Ratings:
    +956
    Manual tuning is preferred to auto tuning. More reliable results. If TV allows do a manual tune?

    Should be no need for any attenuator except when auto tuning sets. Attenuator is to lower the unwanted frequency/ies below what the auto tuning system sees, while still having enough of the wanted ones.

    Attenuators, due to weight damaging sockets on receiving kit especially, should be connected via cable in and out.

    If TV needs auto tune adjust the level via attenuator to get the tuning results you want, then remove.
     

Share This Page

Loading...