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pro v or prog scan dvd?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by woody183, Oct 4, 2002.

  1. woody183

    woody183
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    I currently have the sony 7700 and was thinking abot getting the pro v for it to use with my panny 100e.Or maybe should i purchase a prog scan dvd player like the tosh 510.
    So my question is... whats best. prov and non prog scan dvd player or prog scan dvd player?



    thanks for any help...woody
     
  2. Kramer

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    HTPC is the best option.

    Neither Pro V or Prog scan DVD allow for custom resolutions.

    A PC outputs both Pal & NTSC progressive & can supply "pixel perfect" resolution to the PJ, bypassing it's internal scaler.

    In the Pro V's favour it will also allow the use of Sky, VCR, laserdisc etc... so may be a better option.

    But then again a HTPC & capture card/dScaler will do the same, only better.
     
  3. Amelia

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    I didn't want to go down the path of HTPC, so I went down the path of a progressive scan DVD player (Philips Q50). I really didn't think the difference would have been that much better than my S-Video DVD Player, but is was as obvious as night and day.

    I can't comment on the Prov, (as I have never used one), but Progressive scan component connection is Awesome.

    Have a read of this thread if want to know more about Progressive Scan DVD Players.

    Good Luck!!

    Regards
    Amelia
     
  4. Andy.T

    Andy.T
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    I was just about to post a very similar question, I think it's close enough to stay in this thread. I don't want to hijack this one but I think the answers will be relevant to both of us.

    This may be a really stupid question though guys so be gentle with me. :blush:

    I know that I-Scan, Pro-V etc. help with S-Video sources but would they help with a component source?

    I am presuming that they can't make an interlaced component source look as good as a progressive one as jaggies etc. would be present in the image the moment it left the DVD player?

    In fact are there even any de-scalers that take a Component in? Would a de-scaled Component image look any better or would it be a waste of time?

    I have an AE100 and am looking at buying a Prog Scan dvd player in the next couple of months, but I also have a Gamecube, a PS2 and a Sky box. All of them are component sources, or will be when I get a RGB-Component converter for the Sky box.

    I was thinking that if a de-scaler would help with Component sources (Prog Scan or not) I could get a Component switchbox and route everything through the de-scaler.

    Any thoughts, other than you're a nut-bag Andy - it can't be done? :D
     
  5. JohnS

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    I'm going to go against the grain a little here.

    In my opinion the benefit of a HTPC over a proV on the ae100 is minimial. I have both.

    My HTPC is a cel tualitin 1.2, ati 9000 128mb, zalmann cooler, enermax psu, pinnacle rave. Not the best but should be adequate to provide comparison.

    If you add a Hoya filter to the ae100 with the proV, the results are withina few % of the HTPC. Undeniable the HTPC gives an ever so slightly sharper picture, and without the filter, it gives a better level of black and enhanced contrast levels, but in comparison the dvd player (mine is a old Samsung 709, definatly past its best) into the proV is so close to the overall picture that it defiantly makes the hastle of a HTPC a bit pointless compared to £125 in a proV. If you the add the Sky digibox to the mix then dscaler cannot compete with the silky smoothness of panning using just the proV.

    I dare say that with higher resolution projectors the HTPC has a lot more to offer because the upscaling to the panel size becomes more relevant where as with the ae100, it has been documented that it has no problem downscaling the proV xga resolution to fit its own panel. The proV of course has the benefit of using the ae100's VGA input which is reported to be better than the component inputs (although I haven't tried them).

    The above has been my findings and of course all could be due to a lack of ability to properly set up my HTPC. Any advice of things to try would be appreciated as I find it a little annoying that it has not been the jump in quality that I was looking for.
     
  6. theritz

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    Hi,


    I've just got ProV (called XGA Theatre, from Scancom, the UK distributor for AVtoolbox).
    I have to recommend them - brilliant service - ordered at 1pm on Wednesday, delivered to my door (in Dublin) at 11.15am Thursday!!

    I got it in order to clean up the TV signal to the AE100, and with some tweaking of settings it does noticeably improve the image - with the ProV setting on XGA feeding the AE100, the picture is much finer, colour reproduction is far nearer that on the TV. It does take some playing around with the brightness, etc.. settings on the ProV, though. My TV signal is via cable, and is not digital. Tonight I intend to use the tuner in the Prov itself (I've so far used the signal direct from a Video machine, and I think that the long signal path is probably not helping.

    The effect on a signal from VHS tape is not as good - the low number of lines in a VHS picture is probably the culprit - but I intend to continue tweaking this.

    Feeding an Svideo signal to the ProV from DVD does result in an improvement - the edge bleed that you get with Svideo alone is greatly reduced, but I find it doesn't completely get rid of very minor artifacts, such as slight moiring in small areas of the image.

    I usually use my laptop for playing DVDs - even though its not a dedicated HTPC - It took practically no setting up, just download Powerstrip and set the resolution of the screen to match that of the AE100. I haven't been able to achieve a perfect match - mine is 848x480, whereas the ideal is 856x480 - but the graphics in the laptop won't do the latter resolution. However the picture is really the absolute best - I have to agree with Kramer here - if you see DVD through a computer putting out the correct resolution (and its really really easy to do following the instructions in posts here or on Avsforum) You won't consider using anything else.

    Mind you, the correct resolution really makes all the difference - with an ordinary XGA signal from the laptop, there is practically nothing to choose between the Svideo + ProV and the laptop.

    I'm currently awaiting parts to make a dedicated HTPC just for playing DVDs and I would recommend this route to anyone else.


    Sean G.
     
  7. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    I have the proV, mainly for DTT/video games into the AE100. not set up yet though (moving house soon)

    I'm not going HTPC, so the quality of that is not important. I'm wondering about the difference between an S-Video DVD player via ProV, and a progressive DVD player via component.

    I guess the ProV isn't a fantastic scaler, but its going into the VGA connector on the AE100, so it has an advantage, and the AE100 is just downscaling.

    A progressive DVD player should have better raw image quality, but going through component, and the AE100 needs to scale up (at least horizontally), so that could be a disadvantage.

    I currently have a pioneer DV505, which is getting on a bit, so I'll probably replace that anyway. The decision is whether to get a nice cheap Toshiba 220 for around £150, or look at a philips 963SA for around £350-400.
     
  8. Timh

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    A forum member recently tested the Prov via s-video from a dvd player for me using ST Insurrection as a test piece to see how it would perform with the shimmering and jaggies from this dvd.
    Here are is results, not sure if I should name him or not :confused:

    I spent a very interesting session watching the beginning of
    the movie several times over: a bit like listening to
    someone with a very bad stutter, who never makes it beyond
    the first word of a sentence. These are my findings, which
    are, of course, entirely subjective. First, naturally
    enough, test number one...

    DVD composite video out -> AE100 composite video in

    I could certainly see the effects you asked me to look out
    for: on the low wall, on some of the rooftops in the
    following pan, and on the rooftops in the first view out
    from the observation post.

    However, having read your description (and others' comments
    on the forum) I was surprised by how mild some of the
    effects seemed. The low wall especially - I don't believe I
    would have noticed that shimmer if I hadn't been
    specifically looking out for it. The worst offenders were
    some of the Oriental-style tiled roofs in the left-hand pan
    which immediately followed.

    OK, on to test two:

    DVD component video out -> AE100 component video in

    A definite improvement in picture quality, as you'd expect.
    Cleaner, clearer, less colour bleed. But - possibly because
    of the added clarity - the shimmering effects appeared
    considerably worse with this setup than with the composite
    feed. The top of the low wall was unmissable this time
    round. So, on to test three:

    DVD s-video out -> Pro-V -> AE100

    (This is my usual setup)

    The overall picture quality was the best yet : sharper,
    cleaner and more vibrant than the component feed. But -
    unfortunately - the degree of shimmering was almost exactly
    the same as in test number two (and possibly even slightly
    worse.) It was very noticeable and considerably
    istracting - so much so, that I actually preferred the
    composite video feed, even though in other respects the
    picture was certainly not as good.

    In general though, there's no doubt that the Pro-V gives the
    best picture of all.


    I find that with my Toshiba sd-510 watching Insurrection in progressive is very good, with no jaggies or shimmering visible, but now and then some scaling can be seen on bright scene's.
     
  9. JohnS

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    So nobody has actually compared the proV to a progressive dvd player then!

    There are plenty of comments about the benefits of a proV with a svideo input against a HTPC solution, and a few coments about interlaced component against the proV.

    Anybody with a progressive DVD player in the S.E. want to get together and try it out?
     
  10. Timh

    Timh
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    John

    From the sound of the test I posted above it seems that the Prov would probably offer better picture quality with less scaling than a progressive player, it just sounds like the progressive end of the ProV does not have a very good de-interlacer, hence you still get the jaggies and shimmering.
     
  11. JohnS

    JohnS
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    I dont get any jaggies on my setup, I am astounded at just how good the proV is to the extent that as I reported the advantage with the HTPC is minimal.

    Cant say I've really noticed excessive shimmering either. Ant test disks other than S.T Iinsurrection which I dont have, that I could try it out with.

    My only complaint with my setup is the 8ft screen is a little big for the ae100 and so detail is a little lost. Roll on the higher resolution pj's.;)
     
  12. Andy.T

    Andy.T
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    I don't get how there wouldn't be jaggies?

    Jaggies are created (I thought) because of the two sets of interlaced fields. Hence my comment about jaggies being present the moment the image leaves a non Prog Scan DVD player.

    How can the Pro-V be correcting for this, it can only descale what it has been fed and the interlacing has already happened? Unless it is some sort of softening of the image?

    You've seen it though so hey, I'm just trying to get my head round how the Pro-V would be getting rid of jaggies.:confused:
     
  13. Timh

    Timh
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    Andy see the specs below.

    ProV
    Progressive Scan Video Converter
    TV Tuner and Switcer


    -Built-in TV Tuner for receiving Broadcast or Cable TV. ProV takes external video and audio from a Laser Disk, DVD Player, VCR, Camcorder, Video Game, Satellite Receiver etc.

    -Support VGA, SVGA and XGA
    -Unit Colour Sliver (UK Version)
    -Advanced Frame Buffer Technology
    -Double scan conversion (15.75KHz to 31.5KHz)
    -Watch TV or Play TV Games on your Projector, CRT, LCD or Plasma Display, without a PC
    -Supports audio as well, including a Sound Card Pass through
    -Brightness, Saturation, Contrast, Sharpness and Hue adjustment
    -On Screen Display operation with IR Remote Controller, Plug & Play, easy to use and on software driver required.
    -One-touch Button to switch between TV and PC
    -Automatic channel scan and memorized function


    There is no mention of what de-interlacing chip it use's :confused:
     
  14. Andy.T

    Andy.T
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    I know its output is not interlaced, what I mean is that it's source has already been interlaced so how can it help?

    I thought in a prog scan DVD player the image was taken from it's digital source and made progressive, at no stage was it interlaced.

    I don't know loads about this (as should be evident :blush:) but I thought that making an interlaced source progessive was like trying to make wine from vinegar. That the damge to the source had already been done?

    Or does the Pro-V say "well this source is interlaced and will have created discrepancies between the two fields". Then correct the timing on the two fields, line by line re-integrating them to remove jaggies? It just seems a tall order.

    I hope I'm explaining what I mean, sorry.
     
  15. Timh

    Timh
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    Andy

    I know what you mean now, but if that was the case how come a pc can take an s-video (sky) input and then de-interlace it to your projector, I know this works because I tried it briefly with powerstrip.
     
  16. Walter mitty

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    Well I use the Prov for Sky and it`s BRILLIANT I also use HTPC it`s very little better, not worth the hastle of haveing a pc in the lounge.

    I don`t know what these jaggies and stuff are as my pictures just great
     
  17. JohnS

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    Interlaced V Progressive

    The difference is purely the way the information is displayed, it is the same information.

    With an interlaced picture in the 1st pass, it displays lines 1,3,5,7,9,11...etc in the second pass it displays 2,4,6,8,10,12...etc, the jaggies come from the picyure moving slightly between the 1st and 2nd pass. With a progressive output all of the lines 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12...etc are diplayed at once, hence the jaggies are removed and the picture appears brighter and better focused.

    Or at least that is how I Understand it. I'm sure somone can correct me if I'm wrong.

    So....the proV takes the interlaced picture, displays it progressivly and upscales it to say 1076*768, The pany ae100 then downsizes the 1076*768 to fit its panel res 848*480. Theoetically I beleive that a Progressive DVD player outputting 480P should therefore give a slightly superior picture the proV because ther is no scaling going on in the pj. However, the pany be all accounts works better with the VGA input than the component inputs, so the difference is probably negligible.

    Given the choice and owning an svideo capable dvd player and sky then the proV is the obvious choice over a progressive DVD player. Cheaper too!
     
  18. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    John,

    Almost bang on about progressive. The only problem is that your example suggests the unit doing the de-interlacing understands which set of fields (odd and even lines) come from the same original FRAME.

    If you were watching a DVD which was of original film content you'd find that just de-interlacing by adding fields together in the method you suggest could mean the odd lines and even lines from first two fields are put together and shown as progressive image, then even lines from first image and odd from next are put together and shown....which might not look so nice....

    If it's material which is originally recorded on VideoTape then you've got problems anyway as each field is actually recorded at a different moment in time (they record interlaced) so when you show odd lines and even lines from two fields, if there has been any movement at all in that 50th or 60th of a second, you're going to get jaggies....

    This is where 2:3 and 2:2 detection come in. De-interlacers which can recognise the relationship between fields can re-constitute the original frames back together to create an artefact free progressive field. With videotape material you need to do other tricks to hide, eliminate the jaggies. This is what the DCDi bit of the Faroudja chip is good at.

    I am unfamilier with the PRoV thingy. I did see their new offerings out at CEDIA and would hope to see one working at some point in this country.

    Did any of that make sense.....it still gets me!

    Gordon
     
  19. JohnS

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    Hi Gordon,

    Yeah I thought there was a little more to what I was saying... the proV doesn't do 2:2, 3:2 detection, I think there is a bigger brother coming out soon that does and produces a porper 16:9 resolution as well.

    Any opinion on whether a 480p dvd player should be technically superior (or not) than what the proV does?
     
  20. JohnS

    JohnS
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  21. Kramer

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    Good post John, but

    IIRC that anything other than an 856x480 signal via VGA requires scaling by the PJ.

    Try feeding it 1024x768 via VGA - doesn't look so good :eek:

    Again, only when it's fed it's native resolution of 856x480 does it display the best possible image, bypassing all internal scaling.
     
  22. JohnS

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    Hi Kramer

    IIRC ?? Sorry I'm not familiar with that term.

    Yeah I read that Tim had tried that from his pc and not got very good results, but from the proV at 1076*768 I find it difficult to distinguish between that and 848*480 from my HTPC.

    So if we feed the ae100 480p from a progressive dvd player there is obviously no vertical scaling, but what about horizontal? What is the horizontal resolution of a wide 480p signal?
     
  23. Timh

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    Sorry John, there most deffinetly is scaling when using a progressive dvd player, 480p is not the best,the AE100 scales this, wide480 is the best as there is no scaling done..
     
  24. JohnS

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    Why???

    Isn't the difference between 480p and wide480 just that it goes in a different input?

    480p....component input 480 lines no vertical scaling

    wide480....vga input no vertical scaling

    Or am I missing something?
     
  25. Timh

    Timh
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    Good point John, but I do see some scaling via componant progressive, and when I tested my HTPC with dvd playback it was differant again, no scaling. Maybe the image is 480 pixels in hight from componant but is not 856 wide, thus I can see scaling :confused:

    A good test to show some poor progressive playback is the ship landing on Tatoine for the first time, and then the cast walking away from the ship in SWTPM, it doesn't look to good with a HTPC but even worse with progressive componant. (just a poorly encoded scene I think).
     
  26. JohnS

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    Not entirely true as the proV goes to the ae100 and is seen as wide480 so that is being down-scaled by the pj. Obviously this is where the HTPC wins as all of the scaling is being done before it reaches the pj.

    This is what we need http://www.amceasylink.com/html/brite-view.html which is the next model up from the proV and has 3:2 detection and a 16:9 mode. Bet it will be about £400 though.

    I'll try that one out later and compare the proV and my HTPC. (I need to wait for it to get dark as my room is not very light controlled). Any other suggestions of scenes to try?
     
  27. RichardH

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    -> If I Remember Correctly

    R
     
  28. JohnS

    JohnS
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    Thanks
     
  29. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    for the guy who was confused about deinterlacing...

    You'd think that progressive scan DVD players would do it all digitally, but most (if not all) create an interlaced video signal in the first place, then deinterlace them.

    So effectively they have a proV type box internally.


    There still seems to be no head to head test of

    S-Video -> proV -> AE100 vs
    Prog Scan DVD -> AE100

    considering the significant interest in the 'coming soon' PAL progressive scan, isn't this something that would be of interest to people here? I'd like to see a proper comparison - leaving out the HTPC, which isn't an option for many people, myself included.
     
  30. JohnS

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    Me too, there must be someone in the S.E. of Eng;and with a PS DVD that wants to get together and give this a go!
     

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