Prices of Tag equipment

Nocko!

Standard Member
Hi, just read the thread below about falling prices of our beloved Tag equipment. It seems most people see the reason for this in IAG and their decision to stop development in Tag McLaren gear. But is this really a problem ?
As long as my DP runs I dont's see a reason to change. And to what should I change ? There are a few stereo High End brands (Mark Levinson, Burmester, perhaps Halcro), which also create surround gear that might be better. But there are really really expensive.
Other manufacturers (Arcam, Parasound, Meridian and all the others) may built slightly better gears. I admit, I don't know all competitors. I think, the differences will be small and only interesting if you have the choice between two new devices, but I don't think that there's sense in changing Tag gear into Meridian or Arcam gear, just because there are no more new Tag devices or upgrades.

At first, I don't know how long, for example, Parasound will build and develop their Halo series. If Parasound decides to create a new series, their now up-to-date processors will be sold at Ebay for half of the price of a new machine. That's the way the market works. But the quality of the products does not alter with new products at the horizon. If you invest in a league like Tag McLaren, Arcam or even better, you buy a product, its sound and feeling and a bit of the reputation and the know how of its creators.

But you should always keep in mind: It's not the price of the product, it's the sound, that matters (as Marantz said years ago).
I bought my DP a few month ago on Ebay for around 2.250,- Euro. I think, that's quite cheap. My bid was slightly over 3.000,- Euro (needed an "upgrade" and had a friend who wanted my SP).
Today, the machine sounds (as far as I can tell), the same as the day I bought it. I would also dare to tell, it sounds like new.

The fact, if today there is a brand like Tag McLaren or not, does not affect the sound or feeling of my gear. And if I had got my DP for 3.000,- Euro, I would still be happy with it.

Back to Parasound: Is the Halo Series as good (or bad) as it is, because nowadays you can buy it new at you local dealer ? Will the sound of a Parasound Halo processor become fluffy and muffy, because Parasound decides to create a new series ?

Will the sound become even more worse, if Parasound vanishes completely ?

At last: I own a Velodyne DD12, bought two years ago, new from my local dealer for 2.500,- Euro.
A few days ago, I bought another one from another dealer for 1.900,- Euro. Will there be a difference ?
I wait for the day, Velodyne anounces a new DD-series. Prices for a DD12 will fall to 1000,- Euro. I will buy another pair. Because I am convinced of the quality of their subs. It's a question of hearing and feeling, not of the price. If you like the price of a product and want to show off with your budget, you should spend your money in things, you can take with you (I also like Porsche, Ferrari and Mercedes and BMW...).

Most of my equipment is bought second hand. If all user will go this way, manufacturers will get problems. There will be growing prices for new devices AND growing prices for used gear.
There won't be enough new devices bought that I can buy a year later at Ebay. But this is a result of the growing popularity of the second hand market. Perhaps, someday prices for Tag McLaren devices, especially power amps will raise again.

Conclusion: There will be developments to force us, to buy new devices. For example: I don't buy a Tag DVD Player because I wait for a really good DVD-Player with HDMI / SDI output. When DD+ and other surround formats are broadly available, I will have to ask myself about changing my DP. But not now.
Some might think, HDMI sockets are missing at their DPs to route picture and sound signals. But should digital (!) video signals be routed through a surround processor ? For this function, you should use a dedicated device.

There is just one good reason to sell your Tag gear: You need money. If that's the reason and your living in Germany, please contact me:D

Better sell now than in two years, because elder home cinema equipment has lower prices. That's all. :lesson:

I don't think, there's a reason to answer or react to my (humbling and not worthy) opinion, but I couldn't resist to write a few words after reading the posts below - sorry.
 

Joelc

Active Member
I agree with most of what you say other than the following...the point missed and, in fact, the reason that I shafted my TMA kit is that there is NO upgrade path (at least one that I can see) to handle the new audio formats (i.e. Dolby TrueHD, etc.). This, to me, is an issue whereas the video side is not as I an separate scaler can always tackle this job BUT...the uadio, that is a completely other story...

Just my thoughts...
 

Nocko!

Standard Member
Hello Joelc,
you're absolutely correct. There will be a problem with new audio formats. But as far as I can see, here in Germany is nothing (DVD, DVB-S/T/C) available, that supports audio formats my DP doesn't process. Which sources / processor do you use ?
 

Joelc

Active Member
Nocko:

At present I do agree that there is little/nothing that an AV32 cannot handle...that said, in the near term when the new audio codecs are used the situation will change...thus, it is a matter of when rather than if, with the when being shortly around the corner now that the silicon for HDMI 1.3 is, as I understand things, available.

Cheers,
 

Martian

Active Member
I'm really not worried about new surround formats.
Think about it, in what way can it be better than today's formats like DP2, DD and DTS? More agressive surrounds maybe, not a good idea imo, it'll only make people more tired. More detailed and dynamic sound, not necessary imo. More low-frequency noise, no thanks, I respect the neighbours.
You see it with the -"superb to CD"- DVD-Audio and SACD formats, those are also not really succesfull, not to say they are dying slowly.
No, we can all stick with our TAG's and other toys, no worries!

Just my 2 cents. :)
 

Joelc

Active Member
Martian:

I would agree with you save for on thing...the flaw, at least in my opinion, in your analysis is that the studios will force consumers to move to HD DVD/BluRay..that is, unlike SACD and DVD-A, the studios will STOP producing so-called regular DVDs...with that in mind, I do agree, as long as there is a dts/DD 2.0/5.1 downmix available through a coaxial audio connection then all is well with the AV32R/AV192R...

Cheers,
 

Nic Rhodes

Distinguished Member
A couple of points to add here, the DP is a very able processor that is capable of dealing with many signals. However the vast majority of Tag processors out there are not DPs or 192s, in fact only a tiny tiny percentage are. We also have here many sources nowdays that the Tag family just can't handle fully, whether this is new audio codecs (Lossy and lossless, DD and DTS variants), new digital interfaces or just the limited nature of the bypass with new players.
 

Martian

Active Member
Joel, you're probably right about the forcing to HD/BluRay part, but I think that in the coming, let's say 5 years, there will also be a normal DD/DTS audiotrack available on every HD or BluRay disc.
Otherwise the technologies are moving way to fast and a lot of people (millions) will complain because in that case everyone can throw away their HT systems and buy new DD2/DTS+ (or whatever) compatible systems.
 

Joelc

Active Member
Martian said:
Joel, you're probably right about the forcing to HD/BluRay part, but I think that in the coming, let's say 5 years, there will also be a normal DD/DTS audiotrack available on every HD or BluRay disc.
Otherwise the technologies are moving way to fast and a lot of people (millions) will complain because in that case everyone can throw away their HT systems and buy new DD2/DTS+ (or whatever) compatible systems.


Martian:

I agree that for a "prescribed" time period that studios will put of BluRay/HD DVD with a "backwards compatible" DD/dts track...what I do not know is the length of the prescribed time period which, in my mind, is linked to the royalty fees that each of Dolby/dts will charge the studios for the addition of these older codecs...

Of course, another variable is space...just as 10 year ago no one ever imagined that a 5 GB hard drive would not last a lifetime I am sure that at some point in time the amount information that will be crammed onto the BluRay/HD DVD will push the limits meaning that the older DD/dts codecs will be one of the first things to drop...

Suggest we reconvene in 3 and 5 years time to see whose crystal ball was better...

Cheers,
 

Stuart Wright

AVForums Founder
Staff member
Martian said:
I'm really not worried about new surround formats.
Think about it, in what way can it be better than today's formats like DP2, DD and DTS?
Presumably you Tag owning guys are pretty descriminating and want the best possible audio?
The uncompressed sound formats accompanying HD DVD and Blu-ray are going to out-perform DP2, DD and DTS as we now know them by a considerable margin. Listen to Steve May's comments in Podcast #6.
You may be ok with new technology DVD players with separate (SACD-like) separate outputs. Or maybe not.
 

lovegroova

Well-known Member
Of course we are Stuart, but it's a question of whether we are prepared to continue to spend similar kinds of money on AV gear (something you and your sponsors/advertisers are keen on! ;) ) when our TAG systems offer superb reproduction already.

I suppose it depends on really how much better these new formats will really be. Most folk will struggle to tell the difference between a CD and a high quality MP3, if the truth be told. And of course we all know that the new formats won't be as good as vinyl :boring:

I, for one, am extremely happy with the sound of my system as it is and any improvement is going to be relatively minor given the no doubt significant cost of 'upgrading'. The law of diminishing returns is a major factor for me.

There is a similar thread to this in the Amp forum http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=381847 , a gentleman asking what to replace his Proceed processor with as it doesn't have DPLII, DTS ES/DD EX, SACD/DVD etc. The consesus there being that he's better off waiting until the new formats are out, and have been around for a while, before buying, thus avoiding the early adopter penalty.

No doubt there are those with TAG equipment with a lot more money than me who will buy in straight away, but for some of us, the constant upgrading and credit card debt that goes with it is no more.

Actually, I have a cunning plan, I'll upgrade once the new format equipment begins to become available 2nd hand. :clap:
 

Martian

Active Member
Joelc said:
Suggest we reconvene in 3 and 5 years time to see whose crystal ball was better...

Sounds good to me! :thumbsup:
Please give me your email adress, so I can send you an Outlook Meeting Request. :D ;)
 

Joelc

Active Member
Martian said:
Sounds good to me! :thumbsup:
Please give me your email adress, so I can send you an Outlook Meeting Request. :D ;)

Just PM me here...

Cheers,
 

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