Premier League 19/20

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Ah, I see you've finally decided to reply instead of spamming the wow button.
Do you have anything constructive to add to the discussion or are you just twisting people's words and trolling again?

I'm not going to comment as I have no facts. Unlike you who is just speculating. And I think you will find that Lee Ince said he didn't hear any racism. So no twisting there.
 
You're right, you haven't twisted lee ince's words, but you've twisted mine.
I haven't said that Spurs fans would never do such a thing, I saidi think it's unlikely and that based on what I've seen and heard I don't believe this particular incident happened. There's nothing wrong with speculating based on the available evidence and my own experiences. We'll find out the facts in due course though and if I'm wrong I'll hold my hands up to that.

I've been going to watch Spurs for 25+ years and I've seen/heard numerous instances of racism in the stands from both home and away supporters so I know it does happen sadly. Spurs fans are actually very intolerant of abuse though and are usually quick to report anyone causing offence. I find it surprising that this sort of thing happened without anyone else noticing it or reporting it.
 
You're right, you haven't twisted lee ince's words, but you've twisted mine.
I haven't said that Spurs fans would never do such a thing, I saidi think it's unlikely and that based on what I've seen and heard I don't believe this particular incident happened. There's nothing wrong with speculating based on the available evidence and my own experiences. We'll find out the facts in due course though and if I'm wrong I'll hold my hands up to that.

I've been going to watch Spurs for 25+ years and I've seen/heard numerous instances of racism in the stands from both home and away supporters so I know it does happen sadly. Spurs fans are actually very intolerant of abuse though and are usually quick to report anyone causing offence. I find it surprising that this sort of thing happened without anyone else noticing it or reporting it.

Like you said we will find the facts our soon enough. However I will take you back to this quote by you.

The reason I don't think it did occur though is because Spurs fans are actually pretty decent at self-policing at games and often shut fellow fans down if they start getting abusive.

The above might well be the case with your fans, but they can't shut anyone down until a, racist gesture or comment has been said. Now unless the spurs, fans are mind readers then they can't do f all until the incident has occurred.
 
I can't stop watching the Gazzaniga incident. Trying to figure out what he was trying to do and how Taylor came to the conclusion Alonso was the culprit from the sheer gasps from the home crowd to the reaction from the Chelsea players. What a mad game.
 
Like you said we will find the facts our soon enough. However I will take you back to this quote by you.

The reason I don't think it did occur though is because Spurs fans are actually pretty decent at self-policing at games and often shut fellow fans down if they start getting abusive.

The above might well be the case with your fans, but they can't shut anyone down until a, racist gesture or comment has been said. Now unless the spurs, fans are mind readers then they can't do f all until the incident has occurred.

Note the quote you've used says abusive, not racist. I think it's unlikely someone would be well behaved all game then suddenly start racially abusing players, I think they're likely to have been somewhat abusive throughout the game which is where the fan policing comes in. They're likely to shut someone like that down before they get the chance to resort to racism.
But yes, you're right in that there needs to be an incident of racism occur first for the other fans to be able to deal with it specifically.
At the time of that post it was being reported that the were multiple instances, but the statements that have come out since then have said there was only one reported.
 
Note the quote you've used says abusive, not racist. I think it's unlikely someone would be well behaved all game then suddenly start racially abusing players, I think they're likely to have been somewhat abusive throughout the game which is where the fan policing comes in. They're likely to shut someone like that down before they get the chance to resort to racism.
But yes, you're right in that there needs to be an incident of racism occur first for the other fans to be able to deal with it specifically.
At the time of that post it was being reported that the were multiple instances, but the statements that have come out since then have said there was only one reported.

So your saying racism occurs after someone has been abusive.
 
In my experience racial abuse is usually only shown by someone who is abusive anyway. I've never met anyone who was mild mannered and calm who then hurled racist abuse. We're talking about this specific incidence which was allegedly someone making monkey noises to racially abuse a player.

Racism occurs in all walks of life and manifests itself in different ways depending on the people or situation involved. It's not always outright abuse like this, sometimes its much more subtle. That still doesn't make it acceptable, it's just a different variation of it.
 
I can't stop watching the Gazzaniga incident. Trying to figure out what he was trying to do and how Taylor came to the conclusion Alonso was the culprit from the sheer gasps from the home crowd to the reaction from the Chelsea players. What a mad game.

He apparently told Jose that he was 'not in control of his actions'. What the heck does that mean?!
It's so frustrating because it was such a needless thing to do. He had plenty of time and space to catch it or punch it away.
 
In my experience racial abuse is usually only shown by someone who is abusive anyway. I've never met anyone who was mild mannered and calm who then hurled racist abuse. We're talking about this specific incidence which was allegedly someone making monkey noises to racially abuse a player.

Racism occurs in all walks of life and manifests itself in different ways depending on the people or situation involved. It's not always outright abuse like this, sometimes its much more subtle. That still doesn't make it acceptable, it's just a different variation of it.

To be honest, I don't care which clubs are involved. I don't believe any of them would condone this and it's not really about football, it's about bigotry.

I think your comment about subtlety is very insightful as there are times when you wonder if you just imagined it all and whether anyone would believe you. But it's also interesting in that there must be zero subtlety involved in shouting abuse at someone in amongst a noisy crowd.

Leadership on this has to come from the top and they've been utterly woeful. All they seem to care about is the bandwagon rolling on and the money coming in. I mean, this man runs the PL:


Article was written nine years ago and yet little has changed.

Having said this, I wish people on the frontline would just make a stand and state that this isn't acceptable through their actions - players and fans - and that punishments were increased. I know some on here would just shake their heads and say 'it'll never happen', but it feels like we're all just waiting for someone to make the first move, to stick their head above the parapet and say 'no more'.

We hate it when our Black British players are racially abused whilst on England duty, never doubt their word and only have the strongest condemnation for foreign fans and FA's. So what's the difference here?
 
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To be honest, I don't care which clubs are involved. I don't believe any of them would condone this and it's not really about football, it's about bigotry.

I think your comment about subtlety is very insightful as there are times when you wonder if you just imagined it all and whether anyone would believe you. But it's also interesting in that there must be zero subtlety involved in shouting abuse at someone in amongst a noisy crowd.

Leadership on this has to come from the top and they've been utterly woeful. All they seem to care about is the bandwagon rolling on and the money coming in. I mean, this man runs the PL:


Article was written nine years ago and yet little has changed.

Having said this, I wish people on the frontline would just make a stand and state that this isn't acceptable through their actions - players and fans - and that punishments were increased. I know some on here would just shake their heads and say 'it'll never happen', but it feels like we're all just waiting for someone to make the first move, to stick their head above the parapet and say 'no more'.

We hate it when our Black British players are racially abused whilst on England duty, never doubt their word and only have the strongest condemnation for foreign fans and FA's. So what's the difference here?

The difference between say the England game in Sofia where there were packs of fans with their faces covered being blatantly being racists, doing the Nazi salute for all to see is a little different to the Spurs v Chelsea game where no one heard or saw anything except a Chelsea player who's made unfounded allegations in the past. That's the difference.

Spurs have one of the most sophisticated monitoring systems of any stadium. A system where they can track every fan and have used lip readers to try a ascertain what happened and so far the outcome is "inconclusive"

The only thing we know for sure about the game is a Chelsea fan was arrested for racial abuse against son.

Of course I dont want my club linked to racisim, I dont want any of our clubs linked to racisim but some in here, despite no evidence seem to want these allegations of racism to be true, why is that?
 
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No, Lee, there is no difference whether it's one or it's a hundred, obvious or subtle, the dehumanising effect is still the same. Don't you see that?

I already said I don't care which club it is (and Chelsea do have form here) and I really don't want this to be true either.

As somebody else has said on these Forums: evidence is not proof. I know that sounds counter-intuitive, but it suggests the burden of proof lies with the player and unless it is absolutely blatant (and even then it was denied by the then-Bulgarian manager who claimed not to hear anything!) or recorded, then proof is extremely difficult to come by.

Forget that it's your club here for a moment; it's the bigger picture we're discussing and nobody with a half-functioning brain wants discrimination, bigotry or abuse in the game.

Even if this case is not proven (which seems likely), then at least it's brought us one step closer to actually acknowledging and, hopefully, addressing this problem. It is a disease and we don't need it.

Spurs have had enough issues with their large Jewish fanbase and other fans' horrible chants as it is, so I do not make any Racist association primarily with your club. To my mind, it is a systemic issue that goes right to the heart of the game and the leadership response has been simply pathetic.
 
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No, Lee, there is no difference whether it's one or it's a hundred, obvious or subtle, don't you see that?

I already said I don't care which club it is (and Chelsea do have form here) and I really don't want this to be true either.

As somebody else has said on these Forums: evidence is not proof. I know that sounds counter-intuitive, but it suggests the burden of proof lies with the player and unless it is absolutely blatant (and even then it was denied by the then-Bulgarian manager who claimed not to hear anything!) or recorded, then proof is extremely difficult to come by.

Forget that it's your club here for a moment; it's the bigger picture we're discussing and nobody with a half-functioning brain wants discrimination, bigotry or abuse in the game.

Even if this case is not proven (which seems likely), then at least it's brought us one step closer to actually acknowledging and, hopefully, addressing this problem. It is a disease and we don't need it.

Spurs have had enough issues with their large Jewish fanbase and other fans' horrible chants as it is, so I do not make any Racist association primarily with your club. To my mind, it is a systemic issue that goes right to the heart of the game and the leadership response has been simply pathetic.

No Derek, you brought up the abuse suffered by black England players abroad as if there is a comparison with that and what happened in the spurs game and theres not. The only known racism in the spurs game was from a Chelsea fan who was subsequently arrested but even that doesn't compare to the treatment black players suffer abroad so dont compare at all.

The most recent racisim against England players was in Sofia and to compare that to
SPORT-PREVIEW-Bulgaria-Racism2.jpg
SPORT-PREVIEW-Bulgaria-Racism2.jpg
the Spurs game is ridiculous. I'm not convinced there was any racism from a Spurs fan against Rudiger and all the evidence up to this point supports that.

This was the Sofia game, how can you compare the two??
 
Anyway, Im done with this now. Tottenham are working with Chelsea and the police. And with the state of the art systems used at the new stadium I'm sure if anything did happen we will find out.

Merry Christmas all.
 
Whether these allegations are proven of not, it's certainly sparked a healthy debate. There's a distinct split online between 'innocent until proven guilt' versus 'guilty' but above all at least everyone agrees that there's no place for discrimination.
It's time for the authorities to take this seriously.
 
I can't stop watching the Gazzaniga incident. Trying to figure out what he was trying to do and how Taylor came to the conclusion Alonso was the culprit from the sheer gasps from the home crowd to the reaction from the Chelsea players. What a mad game.

Having watched it back a few times, he could of just let it go out of play, you can see Alonso slow down as he's not getting on the end of the pass. Gazzaniga isn't good enough to be a starting goalkeeper, there's a reason he was 3rd choice down at Southampton.
 
The difference between say the England game in Sofia where there were packs of fans with their faces covered being blatantly being racists, doing the Nazi salute for all to see is a little different to the Spurs v Chelsea game where no one heard or saw anything except a Chelsea player who's made unfounded allegations in the past. That's the difference.

Spurs have one of the most sophisticated monitoring systems of any stadium. A system where they can track every fan and have used lip readers to try a ascertain what happened and so far the outcome is "inconclusive"

The only thing we know for sure about the game is a Chelsea fan was arrested for racial abuse against son.

Of course I dont want my club linked to racisim, I dont want any of our clubs linked to racisim but some in here, despite no evidence seem to want these allegations of racism to be true, why is that?

Well said there is alot of gas lighting going on in here
 
Klopp confirmed one of Ox's ligaments has been damaged, out until new year, blow being out for the Xmas games.:(
 
The timing of the fixtures over Xmas and new year is terrible. Wolves have 46 hours between two games. It benefits some teams and not others.
 
The timing of the fixtures over Xmas and new year is terrible. Wolves have 46 hours between two games. It benefits some teams and not others.
And you can guarantee if we get a result the media will say it’s because Liverpool are tired.
 
As many of us will be busy over the next few days, I'd just like to take this opportunity to wish you all a very Merry Christmas.

And you Andy, cheers.
 
Happy Xmas to all my friends here on the football forums. Can someone quote this post so @YNWA1892 sees it? Hope he’s ok and having a pleasant Xmas.

have a good break everybody and a relaxing time with your families. My wife says this is the only day she can guarantee I won’t be out at football somewhere.
 
Oh also, very stupid from Son too. No need to react to the Rudiger elbow, his reaction didn't help but then if you don't kick out then you don't get punished. You won't get away with that sort of pettiness.
Rudiger's over reaction annoyed me. a Red card for Son and a yellow for Rudiger, for his play acting, should have been given
 
Rudiger's over reaction annoyed me. a Red card for Son and a yellow for Rudiger, for his play acting, should have been given
Don’t think Rudigers reaction anything to do with the sending off. It was a clear violent conduct. I cannot see anyway his ban will be reduced.
 
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