Preamp suggestion for M-DAC and NAD amp, below £500

Ramses82

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Hi everyone.
I am currently using on my setup a pair of Focal 816 special edition with an upgraded NAD319 used as amplifier only and a M-DAC that is also working as a preamplifier.

The sound is good, but I've read on some reviews of the M-DAC that though it is a good DAC, it works better as DAC only bypassing the preamp and using an analog preamp.
Is that something that some of you have experienced as well? If I can improve I will...

With this in mind I've been looking for a decent stereo preamp, second hand, to pair with the system.
It obviously needs to be an upgrade compared to the M-DAC preamp...
The budget I had in mind was up to £500.
It would be good also if it had balanced inputs, 1 stereo input is enough, so I could use the balanced outputs of the M-DAC (if that gives any improvement).
I don't listen to vinyls, so the phono preamp quality is less important.
I like the sound stage to be open, the sound to show all the details.

I am not sure the ones I have seen so far would fit the requirements, but here is what I have seen. Please add your ideas or comment on the ones of the list:

Musical Fidelity X-P100 - not many reviews, it seems a decent little preamp. No balanced inputs, but if the preamp is decent it might not be a problem
Musical Fidelity A1 FBP - seems good from the reviews, it does have balanced inputs too. Quite bulky but I can live with that too. The problem people highlighted on this preamp is the digital volume control is quite "aggressive" and changes very fast... is it that bad? It is relatively easy to find it second hand in UK
Rotel RC-1082/1070 - it has apparently great reviews, not sure though if it is because reviews were made by fans or if they are good preamps. No balanced inputs, but if the preamp is good it is fine. Difficult to find second hand apparently
Adcom 750 - some good reviews, it has got the balanced input... but it is mainly present in US, not many in UK to get

Let see what we get now :)
 
Ah, I forgot to mention that not using vinyls, in some websites they suggest passive preamps... are they any good?
 
Have you heard of NVA?

Recently I heard a passive NVA preamp (the P50) and 2 x 40W Monoblock Power amps (the A40 MkII model) in my home, with my own speakers and the sound was just wonderful. We also tried the 2 power amps using my Beresford Caiman MkII DAC as an active preamp and we both agreed that we preferred it with the passive NVA amp. Not an extensive or in depth test I know, but it was enough to convince me that passive was the way to go if I should ever go down the pre/power route. Also, it's one less power cable needed.
 
Have you heard of NVA?

Recently I heard a passive NVA preamp (the P50) and 2 x 40W Monoblock Power amps (the A40 MkII model) in my home, with my own speakers and the sound was just wonderful. We also tried the 2 power amps using my Beresford Caiman MkII DAC as an active preamp and we both agreed that we preferred it with the passive NVA amp. Not an extensive or in depth test I know, but it was enough to convince me that passive was the way to go if I should ever go down the pre/power route. Also, it's one less power cable needed.
Hi Dibster,
thanks for the reply! I have read a bit about the passive preamps (or attenuators) and seen the NVA (the p50sa with the stepped attenuator). I am very tempted with that route to be honest and I am glad I've heard another opinion on this.
I think the only downside is the remote control... it doesn't seem much, but having to get near the hi-fi every time you need to change the volume is a bit of a pain. I wrote Richard from NVA to see if there is an option to put a motorised stepped attenuator, like the Bentaudio TAP...

Let see what other opinions come along, it's good to hear more and more people!
 
Dependent on how many sources you have you could get by with a P20 which has less inputs and hence cheaper. If like me you have two digital sources (ie CDP & SBT) both fed into my Beresford DAC, hence one source, you could get by with a passive amp with just one input in theory. Lots of them about, NVA is just one I've actually heard.

Like you I'd be lost without a remote control, I'm lazy and arthritic! However, believe me when I say that the NVA P50/A40 combo I heard was awesome and sounded like a lot more than 40W.
 
The Nva passive pre amps are pretty good, just make sure you have the stepped attenuator fitted. I used to have one driving a pair of A80's a few years back. Great value for money.
 
good, a second opinion and matching... I start to believe the passive solution is the way to go then, no matter how good a second hand Musical Fidelity might be...

In terms of remote control I'll see what NVA will come back with. I also have found these guys that have a remote control as an option... Khozmo (or Akustyk, same thing it seems).
www.akustyk.com - High Quality Passive Preamplifiers

Anyone had experience with those? As good as the NVA?
 
Not familiar with them I'm afraid... I very much doubt Richard will be able to offer a remote option, it was one of the reasons I moved on from Nva.
 
I would see if I could borrow a passive, to check whether or not I need to worry about the lack of remote. I'm thinking you could set the passive to a suitable volume with the mdac sat at about -5 DB. Then just use the remote of the MDac to make minor adjustments to the volume as needed – which shouldn't really affect that sound quality I wouldn't have thought.
 
By the way, I use a passive with no remote (Townshend Allegri) and it's very rare for me to change the volume. I find that the signal is so clean and undistorted that even very loud recordings are not a problem.
 
I had the same idea Dazed. From some other users and the manufacturer (John Westlake) it seems the digital preamp degradation starts below -20db. So the above can be used to trim with the remote.
Now with the NAD being quite powerful I listen at low volume from -46 to -30db, so always below the "loss" threshold. The attenuator seems the best idea.

I've also had a few email exchange with the guy from Poland building the Khozmo, it turned out he has got a new designed potentiometer with built-in motor and volume display. He has got also a better chassis and everything.
It comes more expensive, but thinking about a long term solution it seems the best option... this one
HATTOR - HighEnd Audio Manufacture

The remote would be good in case I decide I want to bypass completely the M-DAC preamp, or it is an additional feature to have a component that could last and hold value I guess
 
By the way, I use a passive with no remote (Townshend Allegri) and it's very rare for me to change the volume. I find that the signal is so clean and undistorted that even very loud recordings are not a problem.
That is so good to know... really I am so captured by this passive attenuator thing now :) the more I read and document myself the more I want it! I am glad I checked before buying another active preamp that wouldn't probably have made much sense...
 
That Polish passive looks quite interesting. I would suggest putting a post on hi-fi wigwam to ask peoples' opinions about it - there are several users of passive preamps on there, and several people who are very knowledgeable about the electronics and their implications. It would be interesting to know what audible difference the resistor options would make, and how transparent the device would be compared to the Mdac by itself.

An alternative of course would be to spend not much more than £20 on a decent pair of fixed, in-line attenuators.

Maybe you could even sell your MDAC, take the £500 you would have spent on a passive preamp, and cut at all towards the purchase of a lovely DAC with remote control and built in analog stepped attenuator. I'm thinking a second hand antelope zodiac gold, which would cost you close to £1500 Second hand when purchased with the optional power supply.
 
That forum is also very helpful! I found some other people ordering the same passive attenuator and other already using the older model Khozmo...
I found also a review on 6moons of the old one. Overall it seems good news. On that forum people were looking to buy them second hand, which means they are easy to sell in case.

Interesting indeed
 
I'm going to test whether I could live without a remote control (..oh dear, what a first world problem!) by using my Beresford Caiman as a pre-amp and use my Creek amp in Power amp mode. I think I need to get a life :)
 
I'm going to test whether I could live without a remote control (..oh dear, what a first world problem!) by using my Beresford Caiman as a pre-amp and use my Creek amp in Power amp mode. I think I need to get a life :)
Ahahah :)
Well, let us know how it goes. I am spending a good bit of my evenings researching and sending emails...
I will try myself when I get the chance and if I go for the Hattor let you know the impressions
 
If anyone is interested, I finally got the Hattor passive preamp (attenuator) and it is brilliant... I'll make a video soon on youtube and post the link.
It is very well built with quality components, it looks really nice and sounds even better!

I'll keep posted for anyone that will run a search in the future :D
 
I like the look of your new Hattor, very smart. How would you say using this passive pre-amp differs from using the MDAC pre-amp?
 
I like the look of your new Hattor, very smart. How would you say using this passive pre-amp differs from using the MDAC pre-amp?
Thanks Dibster!
The main difference I've noticed is on the high frequencies, more details and brightness. Secondly, the bass improved a bit too.
Basically the manufacturer of the M-DAC explained that the digital volume on it is good but as any digital preamp it cuts "information" the lower the volume.
In my case the NAD amp is quite powerful, so I was using the M-DAC not higher than -30db... Using the attenuator the M-DAC is running at 0db and the attenuator doesn't cut any information from the sound.
As a rule of thumb, it seems the M-DAC starts to degrade below -20db.
And this by the way is not a problem only of the M-DAC, digital preamps in general seems to do that.
A normal preamp would probably add colour and new modifications to the sound, the attenuator is more transparent.

Hope this helps
 
Cheers.

I'm still undecided whether or not I want to go down a pre/power route in the future, but just to repeat myself if I do it would be a passive pre-amp and would be NVA. My demo a weeks ago of the NVA equipment was a real eye opener.

PS. I CAN live without a remote I've decided!
 
I think at the end NVA must be a good product too, it is a similar concept at the end, stepped pots... As soon as you use digital sources that have enough "juice" to drive the preamp and decent short cables (no need to spend a fortune, just decent... and short more than anything)

I am impressed, and apparently they open up a lot more the more you use them, after the burn in. The stepped pots are like separate resistors, so it will take a while to burn in properly.

As soon as I can I'll make a video of it

Cheers
Alex
 
I appreciate I'm joining the end of a discussion and the decisions been made but I'm interested..
Because you have a powerful power amp you have to use the digital pre quite low which is degrading the signal (due to some digital witchcraft that I don't pretend to understand) so you have a stepped attenuator passive pre now instead.
Why not just use a fixed attenuator, then you can turn the mdac pre up a bit, hopefully above the -20 threshold?
Surely it won't add anything to the sound more than using a passive pre. And if you happen to find one day you really want to crank it up you can easily take it out.
I assume there's an obvious reason but I'm fairly new to the game so please educate me.
 
matt, you are exactly right, you understood the concept perfectly fine. In fact an option was to buy a passive pre without remote and use that volume only as a "secondary" volume for big steps, and using the M-DAC for fine changes.
And yes, in theory you could even attenuate the signal with a fixed db rate.
Each of these solutions have some limitations, like the fixed limit would never allow you to go any higher anymore, which is not a big issue, but it would still present the issue when listening to a low volume.
The passive attenuator without remote is a perfect solution and was my second option. I didn't go for that simply because I read good reviews about Arek (the guy that builds the Hattor) and because the remote is still an option that I might regret not having in the future.
Now I basically leave the M-DAC at 0db and only use the Hattor. I even programmed the universal remote to change the volume on that or the M-DAC with a selector and also to select the input on both.
It is just a matter of optionals at this point, but all the solution would eventually have achieved similar results.
Another good thing is the quality of the components, resistors in this case, where with the Hattor I have quite a good quality stepped potentiometer with Takman REY resistors.
Last thing is that if you use it as a proper preamp, the input selector for other analog signal might come useful...
 
I just finished the video of the latest hi-fi configuration... you can see the Hattor here


Cheers :)
 

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