Power Conditioners/isolators flawed?

lersince1991

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I have a couple of questions about the Tacima CS929 and any other mains conditioner or isolator;

1 - Does the CS929 fully isolate the power in such a way that a galvanic isolating transformer would?

2 - Does it isolate/condition the power between each device plugged into it or in other words,
does it just filter the power from the mains then connect all the plugs in series or
does it filter the power from the mains then provide each plug with a direct connection from the isolator/conditioner

My concern is that if inferior devices are connected to the same CS929 as the equipment I am trying to isolate (reduce noise and interference), noise and interference can be introduced from these inferior devices's components such as their PSU's or aerials. As an example my xbox is pretty electronically noisy! If everything is connected its possible to hear its PSU.

:)
Luke
 
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This in NOT an Isolator/Conditioner it is instead a Conditioner/Filter. It doesn't isolate.

Isolation requires a large transformer, as can be seen here -

Tripp Lite IS1000 Isolation Transformer 125-130


This is a 1000w isolation transformer; dimensions -

Unit Dimensions (HWD/in.) 7.25 x 7.25 x 10.5
Shipping Weight 38.00 lbs. / 17.24 kg

It has the capacity to absorb 680 Joules on the input (surge suppression).

If you can find it, the Joule rating is the amount of energy the device can absorb. Common surge suppressors are aroung 500J to 1000J. Good surge suppressor will absorb 2000J to 3000J.

This particular power strip will absorb 3570 Joules.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=125-014

(Note: sorry to use a USA site, but I knew this site had the Tripp Lite Isolation Transformer, and as long as I had the site open, I search it for surge suppressors. )

The device you've selected, is a combination of surge suppression and line filtering to remove noise. Though we don't know the degree (Joule rating) of surge suppression. Using a variety of methods this filters by absorption or blocking, any Radio Frequencies or near radio frequencies that might be on the line. Many of the filters, though I don't know about this one, filter everything above 100,000hz.

In addition, it prevents surges on the power line with a device that acts as an open circuit most of the time, but when a high voltage transient is applied, the device breaks down and shorts that transient to ground. Transients tend to have lots of voltage, but not really much power. Plus they are very short in duration.

This device is a good a power strip as any, and I'm not knocking it, and will soften noise on the line, but it is what it is, and it is not what it is not.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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Haha thanks Steve,
Do more high end conditioners from brands like ISOTEK isolate or are they just more advanced conditioners?
 
Haha thanks Steve,
Do more high end conditioners from brands like ISOTEK isolate or are they just more advanced conditioners?


If it doesn't specifically say it has line isolation, then it doesn't. Line Isolation require a large heavy transformer, so you won't find it in any power strips.

There is an additional type of isolation and line regulation transformer, sometimes called a ferro-resonant transformer. It is easy to determine if you have one of these, because they are BIG and expensive.

This can actually act as a line voltage regulator. If the line voltage on the input falls below 230v (or whatever), then the output is raised. If the line voltage goes up, then the regulator lowers the output voltage to whatever the standard line voltage is in your area.

The regulation works best when the load is nearing the capacity of the transformer.

Now many high priced conditioners have a read out on the front reading out the line voltage. But that read out means nothing, as it is averaging, and simply displaying the voltage. They do nothing, in many cases, to actually regulate the voltage.

Uninterruptable Power Supplies similar to those used to stabilize the voltage on computer systems, take the line voltage, convert it to DC, then chop that up and convert it back to AC. In doing this, then can maintain a more accurate line voltage, but not at very high efficiency. Plus if the power line fails they have battery back up that can give you enough time to shut down your computer (or home AV system) before any data is lost. While these work nicely, some feel they are too noisy to be used for AV systems.

What you are looking at is simply a power outlet strip, and a pretty straight forward and common one at that.

If the unit you are looking at is not HUGE, then very likely it does not have isolation.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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Thanks again Steve,

So what can I do to minimise interference from inferior or noisy devices from going into the amp?
- If anything

(this sounds like an interview haha!)
 
Thanks again Steve,

So what can I do to minimise interference from inferior or noisy devices from going into the amp?
- If anything

(this sounds like an interview haha!)

The question is, is that really a problem, or is that just a hypothetical problem?

If you are truly having a problem with noise, then give us your best description of the problem, and we will try to find a solution.

You didn't actually say you had a real problem to solve or fixed, you merely asked about a particular power strip, and we gave you an answer relative to that question.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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Reminds me of a time........

Spent ages trying to find out where the noise was coming from, eventually traced to a pre to power lead which was wired back to front.

I can say that in general suppressors do work, but, they flatten the sound quite badly. I had success with a very high end conditioner which retailed for close to ÂŁ5000, but found the faulty lead which sorted things out ( well except for refrigerator pops and other switching disturbances which I can put up with).

Some people use ferrite rings around the cables. Not tried that.
 
I bought the Tacima after the 5* review and have to say it did make a difference to the sound to my ears, so felt it was ÂŁ22 well spent. I was so impressed I bought one for the Plasma and the Projector and both of their sound systems. The picture quality on both the plasma and Pj were enhanced colours and image quality as was the sound. For the cash it's a no brainer.
 
The picture quality on both the plasma and Pj were enhanced colours and image quality as was the sound.

You cannot be serious ??

Alan
 
The question is, is that really a problem, or is that just a hypothetical problem?

If you are truly having a problem with noise, then give us your best description of the problem, and we will try to find a solution.

You didn't actually say you had a real problem to solve or be fixed, you merely asked about a particular power strip, and we gave you an answer relative to that question.

Steve/bluewizard

I did have a noise problem as I discussed here;
http://www.avforums.com/forums/av-a...ment-setup-minimising-noise-interference.html

But not sure if I would have a noise problem with the system i'm in the process of upgrading to, so I'll get back to you on that in a couple of months! I made a diagram and was looking at ways of isolating everything as much as possible. The only noise to my amp would be through mains, I actually own the Tacima already and pretty sure it did improve sound but hard to tell on my current amp. - needed a power strip anyway!
 
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I was so impressed I bought one for the Plasma and the Projector and both of their sound systems. The picture quality on both the plasma and Pj were enhanced colours and image quality as was the sound. For the cash it's a no brainer.

I've used the Tacima with calibrated displays and didn't observe (or measure) any difference in key image characteristics.

Out of curiosity how is your display chain calibrated and do you have the before and after measurements ?

Avi
 
No I don't but I have always had issues with the power supply in my house this has cleared it up to the components it is connected to.

I asked my GF about the HD pic on the plasma and later on the HD PJ and she had the same conclusion the picture appeared cleaner and had better colour and better 'definition' or 'crisper'. I do not have a calibration device for the picture settings, but I am not delusional, I am also thrifty and would not have wasted money if I did not feel it made a blind bit of difference.

As for the Hi Fi both on my first and second systems I thought the sound was improved, again no stats just my own sensory perception.
 
I can say that in general suppressors do work, but, they flatten the sound quite badly.

That's been my experience. You get a cleaner, warmer sound but loose dynamics and definition. I'm sure some mains products will work well though, you just need to be aware that they vary.

I put in a separate mains spur, well it's actually a separate ring, for my system years ago. That works well and is not too expensive if you do the donkey work yourself.
 
I own one of the Tacima things. If there was any difference at all to my sound it made it worse. Made zero difference to TV picture.
 
I asked my GF about the HD pic on the plasma and later on the HD PJ and she had the same conclusion the picture appeared cleaner and had better colour and better 'definition' or 'crisper'. I do not have a calibration device for the picture settings, but I am not delusional, I am also thrifty and would not have wasted money if I did not feel it made a blind bit of difference.

If the display chain colour was already calibrated to meet a standard i.e. ITU BT rec. 709 then anything that changes this would make it inaccurate i.e. it's either accurate or it's not.

I didn't observe or measure any changes in image characteristics using a plasma or projector when adding the Tacima.

Does the manufacturer make any claims about image improvements or is it the likes of What HiFi ?

Avi
 
What Hi-Fi said:

We've said it before, and by heaven we're going to say it again. Don't expect to get the very best out of the lovely, expensive hi-fi equipment you've bought if you don't pay equal attention to the quality of the mains supply it has to work with. And this product, Tacima's fine-value CS929, perfectly illustrates the benefits even a modest outlay can achieve.

This six-way mains conditioner delivers truly dramatic audio gains. Comparing its performance to the ‘unconditioned' sound, our reference CD/amp system enjoys greater separation and focus of sound, and greater clarity and confidence in the midrange. Bass is burlier and better integrated, too.

In a nutshell? It really does work, and is well worth the week's beer money it costs. This product really is a no-brainer.

I guess we can take reviews as a guide (pinch of salt) but it worked for me. The manufacturer states on the packaging that it improves AV quality, in a simple sentence no empirical data.
 
I guess we can take reviews as a guide (pinch of salt) but it worked for me. The manufacturer states on the packaging that it improves AV quality, in a simple sentence no empirical data.

Personally I wouldn't buy anything based on What HiFi? review because it is often purely subjective and is sometime misleading.

Made no difference to video characteristics based on the display products I calibrated and measured. It's easy enough to measure changes in key image attributes. Plus calibrating the display chain may yield improved performance without adding any hardware to the chain.

Avi
 
I've heard enough of the products that What Hi-Fi have given five stars to for me to disregard their opinions completely.
 
Avi I agree however calibration of an image to given colour/image parameters is not the holy grail for everyone. A lot of AV is in the 'eye (or ear) of the beholder' not at the mercy of light, colour and sound meters. The conditioner has without a shadow made (me or) the music/image better.
 
Avi I agree however calibration of an image to given colour/image parameters is not the holy grail for everyone. A lot of AV is in the 'eye (or ear) of the beholder' not at the mercy of light, colour and sound meters. The conditioner has without a shadow made (me or) the music/image better.

The results obtained from the use of calibration instrumentation in this case proves objectively that the colours did not change. It is also possible to show that the audio signal driving the loudspeakers did not change, as a result of introducing the Tacima CS929 BP.

The logical conclusion has to be that any change observed by the viewers and listeners is imaginary.


Alan
 
The logical conclusion has to be that any change observed is imaginary.

Alan does not believe that humming bees can fly by the way. What you think you might have witnessed is an illusion.
 
Avi I agree however calibration of an image to given colour/image parameters is not the holy grail for everyone. A lot of AV is in the 'eye (or ear) of the beholder' not at the mercy of light, colour and sound meters. The conditioner has without a shadow made (me or) the music/image better.

Video production and replay has standards unlike HiFi. Calibration is a tool to help get as close to the standards that determine how content is intended to be replayed for the particular medium.

Many displays have poor/inaccurate greyscale, gamma and gamut performance which affects image performance. It's up to the individual to decide if having accurate performance in these areas is important to image quality or if fiddling blindly with the remote/settings is a better option. It can also help show what has objectively changed versus what's placebo and there is much of the later with AV that can affect us all. ;)

This conditioner without any shadow of doubt made no difference to perceived or measured image characteristics when I assessed it. YMMV :smashin:

Avi
 
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The results obtained from the use of calibration instrumentation in this case proves objectively that the colours did not change.

I'll try to dig our the corresponding "with Tacima" measurement relating to colour saturation and luminance. Here's a basic chart without Tacima and the with Tacima was within the expected measuring tolerance of the spectrophotometer/measuring process.

Avi
 

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Alan does not believe that humming bees can fly by the way. What you think you might have witnessed is an illusion.

Do you mean science can't explain it ?

Avi
 

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