Potshot's potshot

[potshot]

I have a question for John Dawson and Andy Arcam.

Why don't arcam let their dealers send arcam products mail order. I have heard the excuses its specialised kit that needs dealer advice. That is rubbish.

I walk in any dealer and buy a product without being given any advice. The true reason behind it is to keep prices high. I can get 10% discount on any arcam product but you have to be a personnal caller.

When you take into account arcam ships products by couirer to dealers so why can't the dealer do the same for the customer. A dealer should be allowed to sell a product for what price he wants. We live in a global economy, in a free market. Or is this market freer for others. I suppose HI-FI manufactors and some of their dealers don't like the word compitition. I do believe the price of products are fixed through out the industry and does not reflect the cost of compents used from what is considered low end to high. You will find there is very little difference in the price of a low grade capasitor to a high grade capsitior a matter of pennies.

I believe arcam and other HI-FI manufactors are opporating restrictive practiceses by enforcing restriction on dealers not to send their products by mail order. For me it the easiest way to buy. I do know its common in the industry for a manufactor to threaten a dealer if they step out of line they will take away there dealer status.

I am I compliled a list of manufactors who use this restrictive practises and will be complaining to the office of fair trading. You maybe able to state MRP but you are can not inforce the MRP anymore. This new restriction is an attempt to try to stop customers from getting discounts.

I am quite happy to talk to anyone from arcam on a one to one basis.

 

[Nobber22]

Originally posted by potshot
I compliled a list of manufactors who use this restrictive practises and will be complaining to the office of fair trading. You maybe able to state MRP but you are can not inforce the MRP anymore. This new restriction is an attempt to try to stop customers from getting discounts.

Nice one Potshot. Go ahead and stop those horrible, greedy dealers from charging us so much.

Just don't complain when there are no more high street stores who you can visit for a demo.

 

[potshot]

Nobber 22

The the fact is its these horrible greedy dealers who complain to arcam if somebody under cuts them and make arcam bring in restrictions. Has anybody ever thought the mark up these dealers get, 30%-40%. Rather excessive. And if prices were cut they would still offer demo's, its apart of their sales process to hook you to buy.

Sevenoaks and musical images are 2 I know of, but its dealers with chains of stores who don't like compitition. And these dealers are very biased when it comes to equipement they recommend, its normally the highest profit mark up for them. One of my favourite suppliers are sound and vision in bolton, and they do a massive amount of mail order business, but B&W will not supply them and KEF has stopped suppling them because they used mail order, arcam still do but they are not allowed to send anything mail order, and instead of other dealers complaining they should do mail as well and compete.

These dealers don't like compitition and frankly I couldn't see any other industry getting away with this level of rip off. The arcam people are very quite on my last post. The way to stop this rip off is for more hi-fi buyers to complain to the office of fair trading. When they get enough complaints they will have to do a investigation. The way it stands now if no dealers won't make a complaint its difficult for them to do something about it. And if a dealer did make a complaint then no manufactor would supply them. Closed shop, price fixing in the industry which should be stopped and dealers and manufactors are intertwined working together to keep prices high to make massive profits on equipement that should be 30% to 50% cheaper.

I think I have ranted on long enough, but I would like a reply from those arcam guys or do they think its all a total rip off as well.

 

[chris]

But POTSHOT.

You gotta look at it this way.
Arcam/B&W/Kef are trying to support the local (1 shop) dealer.
They want as many shops open to sell their gear as poss and not just limited to big towns, big companys.
Why you may be able to get things cheaper online, not everybody is online.
Internet dealers have little outlay.
High street dealers have Rent/Electric/Council tax/WAGES, etc to pay.
So where the internet dealer may make 5% profit on gear, all well and good, but high street (1 shop) dealer's have a lot more to pay out, so 30% profit, prob's just cover's their bills.

And is'ernt it nice to walk into your local shop and get a demo, before you hand over you money.........???

You dont buy a car without driving it......you dont buy a house without looking at it...........!!!!..........unless YOU have brought both on the internet and am happy with what you have got.

I think i might of made this same sort of comment a couple of years ago (so you are not the first.....or the last), but that was because my local SPECIALIST dealer is a waste of space, but just another 20mins down the road i have a SEVENOAKS branch, who could not be more helpful if they tried (apart from some of the youngsters they employ.....but thats another story)......i may not get the type of advice i require, but then i have educated a couple of them, to view these forums and find out about what they sell and because i have been there a couple of times they know me now and are more intrested in helping me,than just selling me the boxes and hoping that i dont come back.

How many internet dealers can you say the same about........?????

 

[potshot]

I see nobody from arcam came on to defend their policy of keeping prices high by bringing in restriction of sale by mail order. They have no defense for ripping everbody off. New models are tweaked old models with a new casing and in turn lead to a 100%+ mark of the product. A million pounds to in R&D for the av8 and p7 is the biggest load of rubbish I have heard. Bulk standard parts off the shelf.

ANYBODY FROM ARCAM WANT TO DEFEND THEIR RESTRICTIVE PRACTICES.


A 1k amp cost 100 to make so thats 450 profit each for arcam and their dealer.

 

[chris]

Originally posted by potshot
I see nobody from arcam came on to defend their policy of keeping prices high by bringing in restriction of sale by mail order. They have no defense for ripping everbody off. New models are tweaked old models with a new casing and in turn lead to a 100%+ mark of the product. A million pounds to in R&D for the av8 and p7 is the biggest load of rubbish I have heard. Bulk standard parts off the shelf.

ANYBODY FROM ARCAM WANT TO DEFEND THEIR RESTRICTIVE PRACTICES.


A 1k amp cost 100 to make so thats 450 profit each for arcam and their dealer.

Very SAD........

Go and have a lay down..............
and stay off the drink.........

 

[RaceTripper]

Originally posted by potshot
I see nobody from arcam came on to defend their policy of keeping prices high by bringing in restriction of sale by mail order....

I would have less confidence in Arcam products if they went to a mass-market, mail-order model. I like the fact that I can visit my Arcam dealer and get competent info, demonstations, and support, and know I'm buying a product from a company where quality is more important than volume.

If you're unhappy with Arcam's business model, you have power as a consumer to do business with those companies that sell product on your terms instead.

Dean

 

[Crustyloafer]

Originally posted by potshot
Nobber 22

Has anybody ever thought the mark up these dealers get, 30%-40%. Rather excessive. And if prices were cut they would still offer demo's, its apart of their sales process to hook you to buy./B]

I beg to differ. 30-40% profit margin is absolutely required when you have so many overheads to pay and you are shifting relatively few boxes. Yes the AVR300 might be popular when it comes out, but to be honest in the long run a store might be lucky to sell an average of 1 AVR300 per month over a year. If they sold 30 per month then yes they could afford to reduce the margin on it but that just doesn't happen in real life. I've got to work hard to sell a £1000 AV Receiver in these days of £40 Tesco DVD players and £150 Yamaha Receivers. People are getting better and better equipment for less and less money and as such they question the benefits of the higher priced gear.

 

[General Skanky]

They have no defense for ripping everbody off. New models are tweaked old models with a new casing and in turn lead to a 100%+ mark of the product. A million pounds to in R&D for the av8 and p7 is the biggest load of rubbish I have heard. Bulk standard parts off the shelf.

I believe in free speech, but this is quite an aggressive stance you've taken. It also reads as quite a sweeping satement too.

Are you specifically targetting Arcam, or is it just because 'they' are here and approachable? There are plenty of other manufacturers that won't do mail order for their own reasons, REL, B&W to name but two from the top of my head.

Why do you totally disbelieve every claim Arcam have made?

Why is it so unreasonable to spend £1,000,000 to develope the AV8 etc?

What do you know to prove the parts are off the shelf?

I'm interested to know.

As a final note though, and to be blunt, I'll say what many people must be thinking, you are just being downright rude. If it's not intended to be, it certainly reads that way to me.

Personally, wether I like Arcam or not, it's of no importance. What is, is that they are imho one of the best manufacturers around, with fantastic customer support. They do their very best to offer the very best value for your money. Very rare qualities I think you'd find most people would agree with.

 

[potshot]

It is not only arcam I target but other hi-fi manufacters as well. One time when a dealer sold arcam products they were not allowed to discount, but dealers were allowed to send arcam products mail order. The law changed that stopped hi-fi manufacters from stopping discounting, so what did they do stopped products from being sent mail order. A practice which was perfectly OK with the manufacters. Rel, B&W and Kef are also big offenders. All the above mentioned companies all allowed mail before a change in the law.

I have found manufacters that allow mail order actually shift more of their products and they know that. This more to do with dealers complaining they are losing customers to mail order companies, but there is nothing to stop these dealers from setting up internet sites or advertising in hi-fi mags and selling mail order at a discount instead of moaning about losing out.

As somebody mentioned yamaha and the great value you get with them. I can buy any yamaha product mail order and get at least a 20% discount. The reason why their prices are so good because they sell vastly more kit than arcam. Take away mail order and discounting and their sales would drop. Today we live in a consumer world and a free market and its about time these manufacters woke up to that. There will be somebody willing to make kit as good as arcam and other manufacters who will sell at lower prices via mail order. From the poster who said he is lucky to sell 1 a month, if you were allowed to sell mail order and could discount the product 20% and then your sales would rise with your profits.

I had a message from one av forum user telling me he can actually import arcam products for less from the US than what he has to pay to in the UK. He has to ship and pay taxes ? Arcam ships to the US and sells for less than over here after shipping and tax costs ? But this applies to all Hi-Fi manufacters. Something wrong here. Manufacters see the UK as treasure island because they can get away with charging over the top and put restrictive practices in place.

As a consumer I should be free to source any product I want and have it delivered mail order, dealers should be free to send products anyway they want and to discount as much as they want. Its called compitition and it seems every other retailer and manufacter have to live with this except when it comes to hi-fi. I do believe there is mass price fixing going on and cartels operate within the industry working to keep price unrealistical high.

The use of class of product is designed to keep prices high, putting products ina certain price ranges, Hi-Fi mags are as much behind it to keep advertising money coming in so are prisoners of manufacters and dealers.


My post was not intended to be rude, but arcam have had ever chance to comment and prove me wrong. The reason I post against arcam is because there is board dedicated to arcam. If there was one for other manufacters I would do the same against them.

If you lot are willing to continue to pay rip off prices and then nothing will change, and for everyone of you who complained about my posts I get personal message sent to me agreeing with what I say. And to Chris thank you for your message. I have a life and enjoy it thank you. I will continue to post against arcam until they reply to my posts and justify why they won't allow mail order anymore.

Just found out that the WOLFSON 8740 DACs used by arcam cost £4.45p each but arcam probably get a volume discount. This DAC is used in all their high end products. Also the $1000,000 R&D costs claimed by arcam for the P7 and AV8 are not true. The $1000,000 R&D spend was over a number of years and is for amps, cd players, dvd players as well, which cover the whole range of new models.

 

[Stuart Wright]

Being a consumer and talking with manufacturers & retailers (both mail order and with big demo rooms) I understand and appreciate both sides of the argument.
I don't have a solution, either.

While you are perfectly entitled to your opinion and within the forum rules and the law, you are welcome to state your opinion in the forums. And while many things you have said are reasonable, there are some things you have said which are unreasonable.

I will pick up on only one.

Also the $1000,000 R&D costs claimed by arcam for the P7 and AV8 are not true

How do you know? You don't know. You are speculating and then basing arguments on that speculation.
I don't like misinformation and in this case, frankly, BS on the forums when I know otherwise.

So I'm closing this thread happy that you have let off a bit of steam, made a point and while the guys from Arcam would love to put you right on serveral incorrect points in your posts, they have (in my opinion) rightly resisted.