Poor Black Levels on 42PX80

When the ambient light drops to domestic levels, the LCD will be the one looking grey and washed out.
It's weird, but LCD behaves totall differently in brightly lit rooms. I can't explain why, but it does.

However, chances are you're looking at an LCD monitor for your computer. If so, set your desktop to a plain black background, turn out the light and see for yourself what and LCD TV might look like.
Then look at it from the side and say 'wow, that looks horrible'.:D
Computer LCDs are generally very different from LCD televisions – they typically have much lower contrast ratios (worse black levels) aren't as bright, and have different (worse) screen coatings so they don't handle bright light nearly as well either.

Most new LCDs only look grey if you've got the lights down very low, or off. Even in moderate levels of ambient light, most new LCDs will look black.

Plasmas never look black (unless you are viewing highly contrasted material on-screen, which tricks your eyes) regardless of the light settings. In bright light, the glass screen causes them to look grey, and in a darkened room it shows off the greyness of the blacks. (though they are a darker grey than most LCDs)


They look quite dull and bland. The blacks were a grey-ish colour, similar to how yours look Nik, and I also found that the whites were very dull as well. The main thing that made me notice it was an advert for Sky, as the whites on the advert were very dull. Next to the two Plasmas were one of Panasonics LCDs, a 37LZD80 I think. The differences between the two were huge! After everything I had read about the Plasmas having better blacks, better colours and sharper images, the LCD looked easily the better! It had vibrant colours with a really crisp sharp image, with inky black blacks! I looked at the settings for the Plasmas and tried to get the blacks on them better (turning down the brightness etc) but nothing I did could make the blacks even close to what the LCD was producing and they stayed at their grey-ish colour.
There are three reasons why the whites on the Plasma looked dull. Firstly, they aren't as bright as LCDs. While the spec sheets may list a higher peak brightness, in actual real-world use they aren't as bright.

Secondly, the screen material/coatings aren't as good at handling ambient light as LCDs. Once Plasmas get brighter, they will be able to use black-tinted glass (as we saw with more recent CRTs) which should help improve things but I would be surprised if they ever get as good at handling bright rooms as an LCD.

Thirdly, Plasmas have power limiters. The more bright areas on-screen, the more power the Plasma uses. Once you get past a certain point, the display has to cut the brightness to keep the power consumption down. So while a small bright object on-screen might look very bright, a full white screen will be quite a lot dimmer. This isn't the case with LCD where the backlight is always on at the specified peak brightness, and the LCD panel then blocks the light from it to produce the desired image.

As for blacks, seem my posts above.

When it comes to colour reproduction, LCDs are generally ‘better’ at producing bright, vivid, extremely saturated colours – far more bright/saturated than they are supposed to be. This can be eye-catching in the stores though. Plasmas aren't as bright/vivid but look a lot more natural and a lot closer to how it's supposed to look.

When it comes to reproducing darker colours, LCDs start to fall apart a bit. Dark scenes often look desaturated/murky compared to Plasmas. (and it doesn't seem to be a result of the poorer black levels)


Neither technology is anywhere close to ‘perfect’ yet, and both have a lot of improvements to be made. If you plan on viewing in a very dim/totally dark room, the choice is easy – get a Plasma, especially a Pioneer if you can afford it. (they will have much darker black levels than anything else this year when viewed in a dark room)


If you are mostly going to be viewing in a bright room, or with reasonably bright lights on, you will probably get a better image from one of the newer LCDs. Personally I would recommend one of the higher-end Sonys if you want a more natural image, or Samsung if you just want something that ‘pops’ and don't care about accuracy. (though they are getting better)


There are other things to factor in as well, but I would primarily base my decision on what is going to have the best contrast in my preferred viewing environment. As I tend to watch in a totally dark room, I would be leaning towards getting a Plasma, for example.
 
andrewfee good post rather than the usual plasma=brilliant post. Agree with black detail-aka black crush. I'm not sure all LCD's suffer from this. Sometimes black detail is fine, for others not. Perhaps due to source/bitrate? I only seem to get poor black detail from compressed avi's, and not DVD's.

As for LCD vivid colours- simple- reduce colour? :confused:

As for black level that depends on backlight, I would say the black level isn't at the point of distractingly grey at my low backlight setting- similar to a few DLP PJ's- yet it still has plenty of maximum brightness so it doesn't look dull.
 
andrewfee good post rather than the usual plasma=brilliant post. Agree with black detail-aka black crush. I'm not sure all LCD's suffer from this. Sometimes black detail is fine, for others not. Perhaps due to source/bitrate? I only seem to get poor black detail from compressed avi's, and not DVD's.
Well that comment was specifically about the M87 I had. Certainly other LCDs do much better when it comes to gamma/shadow detail when you've got them set up properly.

As for LCD vivid colours- simple- reduce colour? :confused:
The problem is that bright colours are often too bright/vivid, but darker more subtle colours often aren't saturated enough. If you turn down the colour control it makes the brighter colours look better, but then dark scenes look even worse. Many LCDs are stuck with a wide gamut which isn't something that can be fixed by simply turning down the colour control. (at least Sony/Sasmsung displays have the ‘colour space’ option now)

While LCD is getting better, it's still not as good as the better Plasmas at producing a natural-looking, accurate image, in my opinion.
As for black level that depends on backlight, I would say the black level isn't at the point of distractingly grey at my low backlight setting- similar to a few DLP PJ's- yet it still has plenty of maximum brightness so it doesn't look dull.
Well it's all a matter of preference. What bothers one person is fine for anoher. Until black is actually black, it's always going to bother me. Some people find LCD blacks lacking, but are happy with the black levels they get from Pioneer's Plasmas.
 
Theory is nice, but who knows how it's actually going to end up?

I suspect that part of the reason that LCD colour reproduction isn't very good in dark areas is because it's a light-blocking technology rather than a light generating technology, so changing the backlight to LEDs wouldn't fix it if that's the case.
 
Just as a matter of interest, is it true that the best CRT TVs can actually give better black levels than either plasma or LCD? My impression is that I was getting better black levels from my previous Toshiba CRT than from my new Panny plasma, although I no longer have the Tosh now so can't do any kind of comparison.
 
is it true that the best CRT TVs can actually give better black levels than either plasma or LCD?

CRT outputs no light when area is black, so yes. You don't need a "best CRT" either, any cheap CRT (direct view, rear projection or front projection) when setup right. Basically a CRT is like a blacked out room with a laser spot on the wall- the wall is totally black. On the laser pointer dot is lit. There's more to CRT than this (phosphur screen) but basically like that.
 
Theory is nice, but who knows how it's actually going to end up?

I suspect that part of the reason that LCD colour reproduction isn't very good in dark areas is because it's a light-blocking technology rather than a light generating technology, so changing the backlight to LEDs wouldn't fix it if that's the case.

We will know this fall. Light leakage should affect dark area performance and color purity in LCDs if typical backlight is used(especially blue wavelength leaks more than others). But if 2D color area dimming is used, leakege should be minimized.
 
CRT outputs no light when area is black, so yes. You don't need a "best CRT" either, any cheap CRT (direct view, rear projection or front projection) when setup right. Basically a CRT is like a blacked out room with a laser spot on the wall- the wall is totally black. On the laser pointer dot is lit. There's more to CRT than this (phosphur screen) but basically like that.

Thanks. It's frustrating that the choice of a TV has to be such a compromise. It seems you can have either good black levels or a much larger screen with accurate geometry, progressive display, HD resolution, etc. I guess the latter is the natural choice, but I do hanker after the black levels I was getting with my CRT! Maybe the 10G Pioneers next year will finally be the answer?!
 
Hi All

I've just stumbled on this thread in interest. Long story but I'm about to pick up a Sony W4000 as had a Pany Plasma PX60 with the purple snake issue. Both the manager of my store and myself are plasma advocates but Saturday we did a side by side on the PZ80 PX80 PZ85 and Sony LCD (not sure which one but the £2000 one) and we were a little surprised at the blacks on the plasmas. The shop lighting was not bright as is often the case and we tried our best to take the lighting into account but all in all we both were also surprised at the black level capable by today’s LCD's and as mentioned here we discussed how we as individuals perceive black levels and the reality of our expectations compared to what things look like in the real world. The plasmas no matter how much we tried to tweak them just gave us a washed out black. Shadow detail was fine though. I'm not saying that this is always the case but over the years I've certainly noticed my own perceptions being influenced by prior information or opinions and it's only after getting home over time that the truth reveals itself. I do think though that the Plasma V LCD debate is getting interesting this year. My store is kind enough to let me try the Sony W4000 for a week and then swap it for a PZ80 if I'm not happy so I'm looking forward to a real home trial of Sony's latest LCD.

Cheers

Daz
 
My store is kind enough to let me try the Sony W4000 for a week and then swap it for a PZ80 if I'm not happy so I'm looking forward to a real home trial of Sony's latest LCD.

Daz, I would be very interested to hear your impressions as I'm in the same position of deciding between a PZ80 (or PZ81 if my indecision goes on much longer) and a W4000. I thought the LCD v Plasma decision would be an easy one, settled early, but the dividing lines no longer seem as clear to me. :confused:
 
Daz, I would be very interested to hear your impressions as I'm in the same position of deciding between a PZ80 (or PZ81 if my indecision goes on much longer) and a W4000. I thought the LCD v Plasma decision would be an easy one, settled early, but the dividing lines no longer seem as clear to me. :confused:

I'm also starting to wonder about this. Was dead set on the 50PZ80, but the constant waiting is making me look at other options. I thought the difference between plasma and LCD in PQ was quite big, but this thread is making me less sure. If you could give some feedback as soon as possible Daz you'll do us a great favor. And if you are going to do any gaming on the W4000 I'd be very interested to hear about smearing/tearing and lag. Those issues drowe me away from LCD to start with.

Anybody else compared the Z80 up against LCD??
 
Ladies & Gentlemen, once again I thank you for your comments. Glad it's been some use to others as well. Bruce made a post earlier that summed up my thoughts/perceptions and Andrew, as well as others, made some great posts that have explained things excellently.
As Bob said, great to see that there's been no fanboy abuse/defense like a lot of other threads.

I've noticed that the black level can depend on the source as well to a certain extent. I've just noticed on the news that the blacks were excellent but flicking through and finding something like Neighbours, they're very washed out.

Is anyone else obsessed with black levels everywhere now though? I'm looking at them in real life everywhere and can't find much that's as black as the bezel on modern tv's or their stands! lol :D
 
PC World in Croydon have the Pioneer 4280XD alongside the Samsung LE40A656 and a bit further over the Panasonic TH42PZ85B. All showing MTV on SD. I'd say the deepest black level order related to the bezel was (best to worst), Samsung, Pioneer, Panasonic.

Next door in Comet they have a Pansonic TH42PZ85B amongst some 42" LCDs all showing BBC 1 on SD, and when somone wearing a fine checked coat came on the LCD's universally failed to handle the texture and all went moire crazy. Not the Panasonic though, that showed the pattern exactly as you'd see it in real life. I also noticed that the 42" Kuro on it's Pioneer demo dosn't handle the pattern made by the petals in the center of the red flowers well. That developes a moire pattern as the flowers move. The 50" version was OK though.

I'm inclined to think the Panasonic has the best all round picture from all feeds as set up in the shops in the 40" - 42" range because of it's ability with SD transmissions, but it's pretty close and all the three screens have their strengths and weaknesses.

Roy
 
I've noticed that the black level can depend on the source as well to a certain extent. I've just noticed on the news that the blacks were excellent but flicking through and finding something like Neighbours, they're very washed out.
Well this is due to how the eye (and cameras) work. To simplify things, your eye can only see a specific range of brightness at any one time.

If there is something bright enough on-screen, your eye adjusts to it which pushes the grey blacks out of your range of perception and they simply look black.

Once that bright object disappears though, your eye adapts to the picture on-screen and sees that the blacks are actually grey.

That's why so many TVs have ‘dynamic contrast’ technology of some sort enabled by default. It automatically makes bright things brighter and dark things darker, to try and fool your eye into seeing black as black more often. It works to some extent, but doesn't show the film/content as it is supposed to look and often discards shadow/highlight detail in the process.


It's also why, in photographs, most televisions look like they have perfect blacks, and why you can sometimes see ‘black crush’ – it's not that the display isn't showing the shadow detail, it's just outside the range of what the camera can capture.
 
I've the PX80 for about a month now, and use it almost exclusively for gaming on PS3/Xbox360 in a corner of our bedroom which I specifically created there to get my gaming fix. It's usually pretty dark in there, but I too am very disappointed with the blacks on my PX80. Maybe my settings are all wrong (cinema mode, contrast and brightness at about 40%) but the black really is more of a dark grey. This is especially apparent when the whole screen is black. When portions of the screen are black (mostly surrounde by colour), black is as black as it gets.

I've seen some pretty nice LCD's lately, specifically the Sony and Samsung models, and boy do they look black. I'm at a point now where I wonder if I would've been better off buying a (fullHD) lcd for my gaming purpose instead of a (2nd) plasma (1st one is pioneer in living room). Too bad my shop won't allow me to swap it :(
 
I've the PX80 for about a month now, and use it almost exclusively for gaming on PS3/Xbox360 in a corner of our bedroom which I specifically created there to get my gaming fix. It's usually pretty dark in there, but I too am very disappointed with the blacks on my PX80. Maybe my settings are all wrong (cinema mode, contrast and brightness at about 40%) but the black really is more of a dark grey. This is especially apparent when the whole screen is black. When portions of the screen are black (mostly surrounde by colour), black is as black as it gets.

Your settings sound about right for film-watching, although I can't comment on how they would look for gaming as that's not my thing. But you're right - you really notice the problem of the black level only when pretty much the whole screen is dark. If a single relatively small dark area (e.g. someone wearing a black dress) is surrounded by brighter areas, then the eye is tricked into seeing it as black.

I've noticed the problem most in night scenes such as those in 'The Godfather', which do have that dark grey appearance rather than the inky blackness I remember getting from my CRT TV. The cinematographer on the Godfather films was Gordon Willis, known as the 'Prince Of Darkness' for his very sparing use of lighting. Of course plasma TVs hadn't been invented when he was around, LOL.
 
lapino, if it is usually dark in the room, then an LCD isn't going to look black either – it will probably have worse black levels than your current Panasonic.

With a bright enough room and the correct backlight setting, however, you should be able to get a recent LCD looking black – you have to watch out for reflections from the ones that have a glossy panel though. (most are somewhat glossy these days)

That's why LCDs look a lot blacker/more contrasted than Plasmas in the stores, but when you get them home, they may actually be worse if it's not bright enough in your room. With Plasma, you can never get them looking totally black (with a mostly dark screen) but depending on the lighting conditions, there's a chance they will be darker than an LCD.

There are other things in Plasma's favour rather than just black levels though – they tend to be sharper with motion and have more natural colour reproduction, for example. It's all about making a compromise when buying a TV these days, you just have to decide which suits you best. (or in my case, try to hold off buying until someone releases a set with ‘proper’ blacks)
 
lapino, if it is usually dark in the room, then an LCD isn't going to look black either – it will probably have worse black levels than your current Panasonic.

The new Sony 32" W4000 seems to have ~3000:1 measured native contrast. If white level is set to 100cd/m2 for dark room viewing, black level should be about 0.03cd/m2 ie comparable to Pioneer 42" Kuro. 0.03cd/m2 isn't anywhere near black though.
 
The new Sony 32" W4000 seems to have ~3000:1 measured native contrast. If white level is set to 100cd/m2 for dark room viewing, black level should be about 0.03cd/m2 ie comparable to Pioneer 42" Kuro. 0.03cd/m2 isn't anywhere near black though.
Where did you see that? Last I heard was 2500:1 at 250cd/m2.

I measured about 3500:1 at 100cd/m2 on the Pioneer 5080XD that I had, though I can't be sure how accurate that is, and the 1080p Pioneers are more like 7000:1 aren't they?
 
Where did you see that? Last I heard was 2500:1 at 250cd/m2.

I measured about 3500:1 at 100cd/m2 on the Pioneer 5080XD that I had, though I can't be sure how accurate that is, and the 1080p Pioneers are more like 7000:1 aren't they?

According to this review you can get ~3000:1@420cd/m2. 42" Pioneer has a bit worse blacks than larger siblings. 1080P models should measure about that for dynamic contrast. What separates 1080P and 768P models is that 768P models don't seem to have floating blacks. With 1080P models black level rises to 768P model levels during high APL scenes.
 
According to this review you can get ~3000:1@420cd/m2. 42" Pioneer has a bit worse blacks than larger siblings. 1080P models should measure about that for dynamic contrast. What separates 1080P and 768P models is that 768P models don't seem to have floating blacks. With 1080P models black level rises to 768P model levels during high APL scenes.
I must be blind, all I can see is:

“But it is especially at the contrast that we were surprised. With a black measured at 0.1 cd / m², and a white offering a generous 250 cd / m², you get an impressive 2491:1 contrast. You can even flirt with 3000:1 making a small concession on the black level (0.14 cd / m²). This level of contrast is simply excellent for an LCD.”

I don't see anything about 420cd/m2. The problem is that contrast doesn't scale linearly with the LCD backlight setting, so I would expect it to drop to something around 1000-2000:1 when set to a more reasonable 100cd/m2 brightness. Peak contrast is usually in the middle to higher range of the backlight setting.
 
You can even flirt with 3000:1 making a small concession on the black level (0.14 cd / m²). This level of contrast is simply excellent for an LCD.

I don't see anything about 420cd/m2.

3000*0.14cd / m²=420cd/m2. Contrast shouldn't drop that much if peak brightness is set to 100cd/m2.
 
Bloody hell you two must be very serious about Televisions, I think Einstein and Oppenheimer would relapse around you.
 

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