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Polarity question

Discussion in 'TAG McLaren Audio Owners' Forum' started by niko, Jun 12, 2005.

  1. niko

    niko
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    Hi all,
    as you might have read from another thread I've got AV32rDP some time ago.
    I am getting new rack next week and I will rewire it all.

    Simple question therefore. I know TAG units are double insulated, but on which side (left or right - when looking from the back of the unit) is phase (officially)

    Thanks
    Niko
     
  2. hoosterw

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    A proven method of connecting all equipment to the correct mains polarity is as follows:

    disconnect everything from the AV32, only connect mains cable. switch AV on measure with a polarity checker the voltage on the chassis.
    Reverse the mains cable, measure again.
    The lowest reading gives the correct way of connecting to the mains.

    Do this for all equipment.

    Then all is connected in the right way to the mains.

    van den Hul has for example a good mains polarity checker you can use, see http://www.vandenhul.nl/other/c-care.htm#polarity


    Rgds and succes

    Hans.
     
  3. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    Eh?????????

    Isn't the chap just asking what pin is live and which is neutral in the IEC on the back of the units?
    The IEC lead can only go one way into the TAG units....... As I can't remember which way up the IEC is mounted, all I'll say is that the flying lead IEC socket has its phase pin on the right when looking directly at the holes in the socket and the long flat side is at the bottom. Work it out from there and please make sure its right before powering up the unit..... :eek: Of course just using the molded lead that comes with the TAG gear is all you need to do really...... If you cut the mains plug off the other end and wire directly into a distribution unit the wires are standard colour code......
     
  4. hoosterw

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    Well.....yeah, but I assume he wants to know because he wants to get the right polarity connection of his unit to the mains or not?
    Otherwise I am totally and utterly misunderstanding.

    There is no 'hard-wired' connection between any of the mains pins and the chassis. That is already forbidden since the sixties or so. All electronic devices are transformer decoupled. The only hardwire is/can be the earth lead and TAG doesn't use that one as far as I know.

    So to MHO the only reason for wanting to know what pin is what, can be for reason of residual ground currents and that is to be established by the earlier described method.

    Or are we really talking different languages here?

    rgds Hans
     
  5. GrahamMG

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    The IEC connector can only go in one way round..... There is a standard for wiring IEC connectors so the phase will always be on the pin I outlined above. You should never ever ever wire an IEC any other way as you may use the lead for something else eventually...... I very much doubt that TAG would not have taken this on board during the design stage...
    Just trying to be safe really, please tell me your not suggestig that people try swapping the phase and neutral in an IEC socket (the one on the flying lead!). I know its early and I may have misunderstood you but......
     
  6. hoosterw

    hoosterw
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    Graham,

    Don't forget that here in NL the mains plug for the wall socket can easily be plugged in the other way (take out, simply twist it 180 degrees and plug in again). We don't have the same wall connectors as Uk (which you can't twist).

    So in NL (as in other countries) you can easily connect the wall plug reverse, connecting the phase to the different equipment input pin. The equipment is safe from that don't worry, nothing can happen.
    Both IEC input pins (phase and zero) are decoupled (Flying as you call it?) there are no 'hot' chassis allowed since long time.
    Only the third pin (if available) is hardwired, namely the earth pin.
    So right and left are interchangeable but not the middle/upper pin.

    We are talking the same language I think.

    Rgds Hans
     
  7. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    ah yes I see your point, but are not IEC leads available with the 3 pin NL wall plug therefore preventing you from putting it in upside down? Therefore you don't have to worry? I assume that fixed house wiring phase is always on the same side of the wall socket? In fact isn't the TAG supplied mains lead a 3 core cable anyway even though it is only 2 pins on most of their kit?
     
  8. hoosterw

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    Hi Graham,

    NL does not know uni-directional wall sockets. We do have 3 pin wall plug and ditto sockets but they are always 180 reversable due to their design.
    TAG supplies those (what we call) earthed plugs but as said they can be reversed.
    BTW the third pin in the TAG cables are often not wired although that has also been found different sometimes.

    I have found out that connecting phase to the correct input pin does not always lead to the least ground current.
    eg my AV192 and 100x5R are connected with their right pin to phase but the DVD32 is connected with its left pin to the phase. All 3 have now the least residual ground current (I measered them out). That is why In pointed out the method in first instance.

    Glad to see we were actually talking aboput the same.

    Rgds Hans

    Rgds
     
  9. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    I didn't realise that NL 3 pin wall plugs could go in upside down as well, what do you do if you must feed a unit the correct polarity (i.e. a hoover etc.)????
     
  10. Miron

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    Graham, I am still to find AC unit that does not work if plug reversed, including (here local) hoovers.

    Apart from that, are you sure whole UK is wired correctly? Phase on wall outlet always on the same side? Sounds fairly unbelievable!!

    In my flat (house build less than 10 years ago) half of the outlets have phase on the left side, another half on the right side , and I know of one that had none at all :D
     
  11. Stevesky

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    Ahh, one of the few (and I really do mean few) things us Brits can be proud of compared to the rest of the universe are our electrics and the standards attached. Mains plugs (and sockets + everything else) that are phase correct, fused (at the correct rating for attached kit), can handle 13 amps @ 240 volts easily, and doesn't take the wall socket out when you trip over the cable!

    Unfortunately Europe doesn't have this privilage. TAG kit internally is wired correctly, but if you shove the plug in the wall upside down (or the socket is wired incorrectly etc etc) it will influence where Live and Neutral are. If you have a multimeter you can work it out by seeing if there a voltage between (what you think is) Live and Earth, vs Neutral and Earth. The Live and Earth will meaure somewhere around 220 volts, while Neutral and Earth will (hopefully) be a lot less!

    To improve Europe and England maybe we should trade our UK electrics for European hot water systems where you don't run out of hot water if you have a couple of baths! ;o)
     
  12. John7

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    The whole point of keeping correct phase is that the "Live" is always switched to ensure safety when the wall socket or appliance is turned off. If the neutral was switched, the appliance would still be live - v.dangerous :eek:
     
  13. hoosterw

    hoosterw
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    Ahhhh, luckily I live in a country that solves the better end of the problems instead of working the wrong way around ( ;) joke Steve!).

    NL wiring is always phase correct (at least if you rely on decent companies, we do follow some rules here! ;) left side is phase looking at the wall socket)and depending on the location in the house amped at 12 or 16 amps at 240 (3 phase is different that is mostly 25 or 35 Amp)
    All sockets are earth leakage protected at 25mAmps by law ( and that is the better end of the problem, yr kid hits the phase, BANG earth leakage fuse is gone, Kid still alive). (NL has BTW powered up from 220 quite some time ago Steve)
    And luckily plugs come easily loose leaving the sockets behind in one piece when tripped (although I believe this is to be compareable in both contries Steve) and the plugs do at least not weigh a ton or more!

    But I do agree that uni directional sockets and plugs could have an advantage, should equipment not be decoupled. But if you find some that are not decoupled I am sure it are relics from before WW1.

    Since year and day electronics are no longer hot, so nothing can happen and hoovers work both ways Graham.

    ps Steve, Belgium and France are starting to transform but they have the
    same sockets/plugs as we have but they have an extra 4th pin (no use) making it uni directional.
     
  14. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    As Steve says the whole of the UK is wired correctly assuming a massive (and I mean massive) balls up hasn't occured with a very very dim sparky which incidentally with new laws governing the installation and modification of electrical wiring installs (houses and commercial), new testing rules and competent persons also hopefully make mistakes a lot less likely. I am also sure that hundreds of domestic mains items would get very broken if you wired up live and neutral reversed and I'm not about to test out which items survive in my house......

    I am stunned that any modern house would have its mains wired half and half as you describe, one up to the Brits for a change!
     
  15. lenny

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    I confirm that here in France the sockets/ plugs are unidirectional and that the real wirings of the live and neutral are done using a... dime. Often you are obliged to open the sockets and make the wirings again, very annoying and boring. The procedure Hans suggested here is mandatory if you want to extract the best from your system.

    regards,

    Lenny
     
  16. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    So that is:-

    UK 1
    France 0
    NL 0
    :devil:
     
  17. hoosterw

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    Well, :lesson:

    I would call it UK -1
    for doing things the wrong way around and living in pre-war thinking as always.
    France 0 but they are always slow otherwise you dont get good wine and cheese.
    And NL as always +1. What else do we have but to improve the world!?

    :hiya:

    ;)

    Just don't take me seriuous it was a good bottle of rose and we had 26C here this afternoon, sooo 'hikkups' .....
     
  18. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    15DegC here and wet.......but at least we can trust our electrics....

    Lets hope that the Dutch tarmac is good as I'll be rippinng it up in a couple of weeks with the MG.... :D
     
  19. hoosterw

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    Run by my place and I'll let you have some good cold beers to!
    :thumbsup:
    Rgds hans
     
  20. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    Apparently we are taking over just about all of the Zeewolde Centre Parc area and our events form 6 loops from that central point, if your anywhere near I am sure you will hear me :devil: 550 cars have entered events which last for 7 days starting the 27th.... Something for everyone including nutters like me :D
     
  21. hoosterw

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    Zeewolde, quite some way of in fact 128km.

    Well that would be a nice drive. :D

    So you'r a car lover as well as an hifi nutter?

    Same here. Keeps me from doing weird other things!
     
  22. GrahamMG

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  23. hoosterw

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    Well if it is about cars, I have at least the same taste as Jeremy.

    :D
     
  24. GrahamMG

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    He turned up in his Ford GT yesterday......... :smashin:
     
  25. hoosterw

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    Nice car, but there is nothing as sub-sub-zero as the DB9! :smashin: :smashin: :smashin:
     
  26. GrahamMG

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    Agreed, but........... I sooooo want to have a go in one....... :lease:
    It is a lot bigger than you think as well, I'll stick to the MG......
     

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